'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick'

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esxmarkc
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#76

Post by esxmarkc »

To be published, you must be doing research. To do research you need grants (money). To get that grant you need to be preaching to the choir. How many climate scientists who are on the other side of the fence do you actually believe are getting research grants that lead to published papers? I don't believe many do.
So you're throwing peer review out the window? Doesn't work like that. And you don't get grants based on who you preach to. Just not how it works. Been there, seen that. You get grants based on the research you are proposing, not the outcome you intend to prove. Very little good science is ever done attempting to prove a pre-conceived outcome. And not all research requires funding. Some great research is done as part of the PHd thesis process. Some research funding comes from private industry. Some funding from investment capital pre-engagement discovery and some from government grants.
I have no doubt that man contributes to climate change in some form, but it is the extent of the impact that to me is the issue.
I wholeheartedly agree.
"Settled science" is the buzzword. Less than a decade ago physicists and astronomers were convinced that the universe would expand to a point and than begin to contract in on itself. Now the data shows that the universe will continue to expand for eternity. I don't think science should ever be "settled." Do you?
You won't have scientists using that term. And no good astrophysiscyst was "absolutely convinced" or used the term "settled science" back before the theory of dark matter and it's effect on the continued expansion of the universe was developed. And they still don't use the term "settled science" when it comes to dark matter. So I can't claim to really understand your point. There aren't any good climatologists that are using the term "settled science" in any of their peer reviewed publications that I have found.
Is the "root cause" of the climate warming the result of man - maybe. Is the root cause other than man - maybe. Are those who are championing man as the evil culprit going to profit - you betcha. Are those who believe otherwise going to profit - no way. Follow the money.
Completely disagree. But let's "follow the money": The largest ever, irreversibly bloated, cash rich corporations have EVERYTHING to loose if it is proven that the cause is anthropogenic. And they are the LARGEST contributors to the rhetoric attempting to debunk global warming. Every last energy company has a lobbiest in the game and a scientist in the pocket.

So yea..... follow the money.... and once you have sorted through and thrown out the totally biased rhetoric generated by the energy industry as well as any other gibberish created by strictly liberal snare banging what you are left with is a pretty good body of peer-reviewed research that everyone (even you) has direct access to. Feel free to peruse it and make your educated decisions. This is all I urge any good tax-paying American to do.
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#77

Post by G26ster »

esxmarkc wrote:
To be published, you must be doing research. To do research you need grants (money). To get that grant you need to be preaching to the choir. How many climate scientists who are on the other side of the fence do you actually believe are getting research grants that lead to published papers? I don't believe many do.
So you're throwing peer review out the window? Doesn't work like that. And you don't get grants based on who you preach to. Just not how it works. Been there, seen that. You get grants based on the research you are proposing, not the outcome you intend to prove. Very little good science is ever done attempting to prove a pre-conceived outcome. And not all research requires funding. Some great research is done as part of the PHd thesis process. Some research funding comes from private industry. Some funding from investment capital pre-engagement discovery and some from government grants.
I have no doubt that man contributes to climate change in some form, but it is the extent of the impact that to me is the issue.
I wholeheartedly agree.
"Settled science" is the buzzword. Less than a decade ago physicists and astronomers were convinced that the universe would expand to a point and than begin to contract in on itself. Now the data shows that the universe will continue to expand for eternity. I don't think science should ever be "settled." Do you?
You won't have scientists using that term. And no good astrophysiscyst was "absolutely convinced" or used the term "settled science" back before the theory of dark matter and it's effect on the continued expansion of the universe was developed. And they still don't use the term "settled science" when it comes to dark matter. So I can't claim to really understand your point. There aren't any good climatologists that are using the term "settled science" in any of their peer reviewed publications that I have found.
Is the "root cause" of the climate warming the result of man - maybe. Is the root cause other than man - maybe. Are those who are championing man as the evil culprit going to profit - you betcha. Are those who believe otherwise going to profit - no way. Follow the money.
Completely disagree. But let's "follow the money": The largest ever, irreversibly bloated, cash rich corporations have EVERYTHING to loose if it is proven that the cause is anthropogenic. And they are the LARGEST contributors to the rhetoric attempting to debunk global warming. Every last energy company has a lobbiest in the game and a scientist in the pocket.

So yea..... follow the money.... and once you have sorted through and thrown out the totally biased rhetoric generated by the energy industry as well as any other gibberish created by strictly liberal snare banging what you are left with is a pretty good body of peer-reviewed research that everyone (even you) has direct access to. Feel free to peruse it and make your educated decisions. This is all I urge any good tax-paying American to do.
You miss my point. The key word is "published." Not all research is published. But, I agree that "Very little good science is ever done attempting to prove a pre-conceived outcome." You're right, it's not good science. So you obviously believe that all those that are currently convinced in man made global warming are continuing their research with open minds and are open to being proven wrong.

I never said "scientists" are using the term "settled science." I said it was a "buzzword." Those with the megaphones are using the term for the masses. The oil industry is not on the ballot, and cannot vote into power those that will make them richer at the expense of us all. Of course they have lobbyists, and so does every other interest group. They are also not the scientists that are enhancing their resumes with their published papers. As far as oil companies being "bloated," compare their profit margin with that of other businesses. They come in at less than 10% profit margin. When you are selling megabucks worth of product throughout the world, you profit is megabucks. They spend "cubic money" which nets cubic money., but the percentage of profit is still much lower than many other businesses.

As for "peer reviewed" articles published, there are many types of peer reviews. But, to sum it up, I took note of this on the Wikipedia page you linked:

"Richard Horton, editor of the British medical journal The Lancet, said:

The mistake, of course, is to have thought that peer review was any more than just a crude means of discovering the acceptability—not the validity—of a new finding. Editors and scientists alike insist on the pivotal importance of peer review. We portray peer review to the public as a quasi-sacred process that helps to make science our most objective truth teller. But we know that the system of peer review is biased, unjust, unaccountable, incomplete, easily fixed, often insulting, usually ignorant, occasionally foolish, and frequently wrong."


So I'll leave this discussion with this. 97% of like minded people will always agree, regardless of the subject, as long as they all subscribe to the same thinking and beliefs. As I said before, I don't know what the truth is on man made global warming, but I am convinced the "published" science is skewed to favor the conclusion that it is. Once again, MHO.
Last edited by G26ster on Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#78

Post by Oldgringo »

A Winter Weather Advisory with snow forecast is keeping us from going up to Glacier NP again tomorrow....but today was tee shirt and shorts weather. Yes, there is climate change. :yawn
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#79

Post by ShootDontTalk »

esxmarkc...You seem to have it all figured out. I guess you have figured out how to make the Russians, Chinese, and let's shoot for the moon, the Mexicans, help save the planet by cutting out all non-green energy sources. I'd sure be interested to hear your plan for global compliance.

Just for the record, I bet you consume way more of the product from the "major energy companies" than you think. In fact, I bet you are even wearing some. You surely ate what they provided to your table tonight. I expect you are enjoying the cool inside your home tonight? You think maybe any guns you own came into existence without input from them? I really want to hear what "unsettled science" you think can currently replace them. While you're at, it would sure be nice if you could manage to calm any hurricanes that come up in the Gulf this year. You spoke of destroying the planet. No one has suggested otherwise. But I must have missed the part about really changing planetary evolution back to a previous state. How exactly would you do that? Because you see, if man is really totally in charge, then it follows that such positive planetary modification would be well within reach. If he is not, then that is a pipe dream for the foreseeable future.

Now surely I intend none of this as personal toward you. But you do sound like you have a bone to pick with our current way of life. I think that before anyone advocates ending it they should have some kind of plan in hand.

One last thing. If you truly believe the peer review process guarantees uniformity of thought, research, and conclusion among the entire body scientific, then you have missed a major lesson in the influence of the body politic.

Oldgringo...stop with the thoughts of snow..."oh the bells, the bells." :lol:
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esxmarkc
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#80

Post by esxmarkc »

ShootDontTalk wrote:esxmarkc...You seem to have it all figured out. I guess you have figured out how to make the Russians, Chinese, and let's shoot for the moon, the Mexicans, help save the planet by cutting out all non-green energy sources. I'd sure be interested to hear your plan for global compliance.

Just for the record, I bet you consume way more of the product from the "major energy companies" than you think. In fact, I bet you are even wearing some. You surely ate what they provided to your table tonight. I expect you are enjoying the cool inside your home tonight? You think maybe any guns you own came into existence without input from them? I really want to hear what "unsettled science" you think can currently replace them. While you're at, it would sure be nice if you could manage to calm any hurricanes that come up in the Gulf this year. You spoke of destroying the planet. No one has suggested otherwise. But I must have missed the part about really changing planetary evolution back to a previous state. How exactly would you do that? Because you see, if man is really totally in charge, then it follows that such positive planetary modification would be well within reach. If he is not, then that is a pipe dream for the foreseeable future.

Now surely I intend none of this as personal toward you. But you do sound like you have a bone to pick with our current way of life. I think that before anyone advocates ending it they should have some kind of plan in hand.

One last thing. If you truly believe the peer review process guarantees uniformity of thought, research, and conclusion among the entire body scientific, then you have missed a major lesson in the influence of the body politic.
It honestly doesn't look like you read a single word of my posts
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esxmarkc
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#81

Post by esxmarkc »

You miss my point. The key word is "published." Not all research is published. But, I agree that "Very little good science is ever done attempting to prove a pre-conceived outcome." You're right, it's not good science.
I hit your point on the money. I was talking about published, peer-reviewed research. I never indicated differently.
So you obviously believe that all those that are currently convinced in man made global warming are continuing their research with open minds and are open to being proven wrong.
Why you are attempting to put words in my mouth or assume to know what I believe so incorrectly has me puzzled. I'll say it once more: I read most of it all. I filter it as best as I possibly can for it's bias. I form my own opinions and that's simply it.
The oil industry is not on the ballot, and cannot vote into power those that will make them richer at the expense of us all.
Can you really say that with a straight face? :cool:
They are also not the scientists that are enhancing their resumes with their published papers.
And Scientists can get their resume' s enhanced regardless of their position as long as they publish.
As far as oil companies being "bloated," compare their profit margin with that of other businesses. They come in at less than 10% profit margin. When you are selling megabucks worth of product throughout the world, you profit is megabucks. They spend "cubic money" which nets cubic money., but the percentage of profit is still much lower than many other businesses.
I'm not sure what you are trying to convince me on here. That their combined lobbying and financial influential power is of no concern here? They have the biggest dog in the fight and the most to loose.

In 2011, the five biggest oil companies earned a combined profit of $375 million per day, or a record $137 billion profit for the year despite a reduction in their oil production.
The entire oil and gas industry spent on average $400,000 each day lobbying senators and representatives to weaken public health safeguards and keep big oil tax breaks.

As for 2012, you should read this. Honestly. Please read it - especially on how their spending on lobbying paid off.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/ ... -the-gold/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

but just in case you don't decide to click on it:
The oil and gas industry has been the largest beneficiary of the anti-environment votes in the House. Since the beginning of 2011, the House has voted 109 times for policies that enrich the oil and gas industry, including 45 votes to weaken environmental, public health, and safety requirements applicable to oil companies; [and] 38 votes to block or slow deployment of clean energy alternatives.

As for "peer reviewed" articles published, there are many types of peer reviews. But, to sum it up, I took note of this on the Wikipedia page you linked:

"Richard Horton, editor of the British medical journal The Lancet, said:

The mistake, of course, is to have thought that peer review was any more than just a crude means of discovering the acceptability—not the validity—of a new finding. Editors and scientists alike insist on the pivotal importance of peer review. We portray peer review to the public as a quasi-sacred process that helps to make science our most objective truth teller. But we know that the system of peer review is biased, unjust, unaccountable, incomplete, easily fixed, often insulting, usually ignorant, occasionally foolish, and frequently wrong."
That is the beauty of peer-reviews: even the WIki is easily reviewed by you and I so before you go quoting Richard Horton you may want to do a little research on that quack
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... r%20review" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So I'll leave this discussion with this. 97% of like minded people will always agree, regardless of the subject, as long as they all subscribe to the same thinking and beliefs. As I said before, I don't know what the truth is on man made global warming, but I am convinced the "published" science is skewed to favor the conclusion that it is. Once again, MHO.
I won't even DARE asking you where you got that figure from. :lol:
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G26ster
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#82

Post by G26ster »

esxmarkc wrote:
You miss my point. The key word is "published." Not all research is published. But, I agree that "Very little good science is ever done attempting to prove a pre-conceived outcome." You're right, it's not good science.
I hit your point on the money. I was talking about published, peer-reviewed research. I never indicated differently.
So you obviously believe that all those that are currently convinced in man made global warming are continuing their research with open minds and are open to being proven wrong.
Why you are attempting to put words in my mouth or assume to know what I believe so incorrectly has me puzzled. I'll say it once more: I read most of it all. I filter it as best as I possibly can for it's bias. I form my own opinions and that's simply it.
The oil industry is not on the ballot, and cannot vote into power those that will make them richer at the expense of us all.
Can you really say that with a straight face? :cool:
They are also not the scientists that are enhancing their resumes with their published papers.
And Scientists can get their resume' s enhanced regardless of their position as long as they publish.
As far as oil companies being "bloated," compare their profit margin with that of other businesses. They come in at less than 10% profit margin. When you are selling megabucks worth of product throughout the world, you profit is megabucks. They spend "cubic money" which nets cubic money., but the percentage of profit is still much lower than many other businesses.
I'm not sure what you are trying to convince me on here. That their combined lobbying and financial influential power is of no concern here? They have the biggest dog in the fight and the most to loose.

In 2011, the five biggest oil companies earned a combined profit of $375 million per day, or a record $137 billion profit for the year despite a reduction in their oil production.
The entire oil and gas industry spent on average $400,000 each day lobbying senators and representatives to weaken public health safeguards and keep big oil tax breaks.

As for 2012, you should read this. Honestly. Please read it - especially on how their spending on lobbying paid off.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/ ... -the-gold/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

but just in case you don't decide to click on it:
The oil and gas industry has been the largest beneficiary of the anti-environment votes in the House. Since the beginning of 2011, the House has voted 109 times for policies that enrich the oil and gas industry, including 45 votes to weaken environmental, public health, and safety requirements applicable to oil companies; [and] 38 votes to block or slow deployment of clean energy alternatives.

As for "peer reviewed" articles published, there are many types of peer reviews. But, to sum it up, I took note of this on the Wikipedia page you linked:

"Richard Horton, editor of the British medical journal The Lancet, said:

The mistake, of course, is to have thought that peer review was any more than just a crude means of discovering the acceptability—not the validity—of a new finding. Editors and scientists alike insist on the pivotal importance of peer review. We portray peer review to the public as a quasi-sacred process that helps to make science our most objective truth teller. But we know that the system of peer review is biased, unjust, unaccountable, incomplete, easily fixed, often insulting, usually ignorant, occasionally foolish, and frequently wrong."
That is the beauty of peer-reviews: even the WIki is easily reviewed by you and I so before you go quoting Richard Horton you may want to do a little research on that quack
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... r%20review" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So I'll leave this discussion with this. 97% of like minded people will always agree, regardless of the subject, as long as they all subscribe to the same thinking and beliefs. As I said before, I don't know what the truth is on man made global warming, but I am convinced the "published" science is skewed to favor the conclusion that it is. Once again, MHO.
I won't even DARE asking you where you got that figure from. :lol:
Try reading this on oil companies PERCENT of NET profit. You cite the politically left think tank, and strong supporters of green energy. I don't exactly consider them an "independent" source of information. My source is sheer numbers comparison in the table that shows the major oil companies make 6.2 cents net profit out of every dollar of revenue. That places them 114 out of 125 major industries.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/05/oil ... t-215.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You make a personal opinion that Dr. Horton is a quack. While there seems to have been some controversy, his credentials and awards seem quite impressive.

As for publishing, who makes the decision whether a study is published or not? I don't believe it's the author that is the deciding factor. Peer reviews may be open, blind, or anonymous. What type of peer reviews are in the 97% you cited? Who funded the studies that were reviewed?

As for the 97% agreement, I'd wager that 97% of communists thought it was the best type of gov't, and that 97% of capitalists think theirs is best. It's just common sense that like minded people agree.

Bottom line, unlike much research, there are politics involved with climate change. As long as that is a factor, then facts will be distorted to suit political ends by both sides, and in my opinion, that includes which studies are "published" and which are not.

esxmarkc
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#83

Post by esxmarkc »

Try reading this on oil companies PERCENT of NET profit. You cite the politically left think tank, and strong supporters of green energy. I don't exactly consider them an "independent" source of information. My source is sheer numbers comparison in the table that shows the major oil companies make 6.2 cents net profit out of every dollar of revenue. That places them 114 out of 125 major industries.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/05/oil" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... t-215.html
I read it back when it came out in 2011 and the figure is 114 out of 215 not 125. And it supports EXACTLY what I'm telling you: They can't take another hit toward their already thin profit margin. Read the article. They can't tolerate another windfall profit tax, GREEN ENERGY TAX or ANYTHING that hits their already thinned profit margin. I'll say it none more time: They have the MOST to lose in the global warming card game and are willing to use a LARGE amount of their immense earnings to maintain their position. I read my quarterlies on ALL my investments - including the ones in my energy portfolio. I sincerely hope you do too. I know what their profit margins as well as their dividends are as well as their expenditures towards maintaining their interests. Of course you can try to cite that as coming from "politically left think tank" but I assure you it's just raw data - readily available to yo or anyone.
As for publishing, who makes the decision whether a study is published or not? I don't believe it's the author that is the deciding factor. Peer reviews may be open, blind, or anonymous. What type of peer reviews are in the 97% you cited? Who funded the studies that were reviewed?
Look, go back and cruise the publication again it it tells you how they weeded out who they believed had conflict of interests and still came up with 97%
We defined UE researchers as those who have signed statements strongly dissenting from the views of the IPCC. We compiled UE names comprehensively from 12 of the most prominent statements criticizing the IPCC conclusions (n = 472; SI Materials and Methods). Only three researchers were members of both the CE and UE groups (due to their presence on both CE and UE lists) and remained in the dataset


More importantly (I believe) if you read in the abstract here http://www.pnas.org/content/107/27/12107.abstract
Here, we use an extensive dataset of 1,372 climate researchers and their publication and citation data to show that (i) 97–98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field surveyed here support the tenets of ACC outlined by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change,


they are telling you that some of this data comes from respected, published researchers (whose publishings may have NOTHING to do with climate change) who were surveyed on their position. This supports my argument against TAMS original claim where he believed most real Climatologists don't support global warming.
As for the 97% agreement, I'd wager that 97% of communists thought it was the best type of gov't, and that 97% of capitalists think theirs is best. It's just common sense that like minded people agree.
Look, if you want to make some kind of point lets use real numbers instead of pulling them out of God knows where: In the last US presidential election 47.15% of us voted for a Republican president and the other 51.01% voted for lint-brained a democratic sponge. So that tells you right there that half of this country doesn't agree with the other half. Now I don't know the brake down of Climatologists and their voting tendencies and I'm not going to pull figures out of the air but you can safely start at approximately 50/50 and skew it any direction you please.

We can beat this horse pretty good but how about we look at it from an entirely different angle.

Let's start with argument #1:

There is an abundance of data and research and statistics that tend to indicate that that a well-armed, licensed population of handgun toting Americans tend to be be most responsible, most law-abiding and most behaved population of individuals. Charles Cotton and his crew of helpers have done a great job of compiling statistics. Furthermore, studies tend to indicate that a licensed, well-armed and responsible population of gun-toting Americans tend experience less violent crime. I believe this to be true as well as most any good gun-toting supporter of the second amendment. The data and the statistics and research is there.

The grumbling anti-gun population of liberal America denies these claims. They cite the data as "shaky" and "biased" and "inconclusive" and refuse to believe a word of it regardless of it's origins. Progress in converting this section of the population is practically impossible. They cite and use every negative event toward furthering their negative agenda. There are interests with EXTREMELY deep pockets that continue to fund this obviously incorrect position in order to maintain their illusion of control.

Now lets look at argument #2:

There is an abundance if research, statistics and data that indicate that there is a continuing global warming trend. Furthermore, studies tend to indicate that the root cause of this global warming cycle we are experiencing are caused by industrialized societies emissions from the burning of fossil fuels. There is even research that indicates that there is a pretty solid consensus from the experts (Climatologists) in the field.

The grumbling, global-warming conspiracy-theorists denies these claims. They cite the data as "shaky" and "biased" and "inconclusive" and refuse to believe a word of it regardless of it's origins. Progress in converting this section of the population is practically impossible. They cite and use every thread they can grab hold of that supports their position no matter how thin, no matter where it dangled from. There are interests with EXTREMELY deep pockets that continue to fund this position in order to maintain their 100% "all-in" position at the table.


Do you see the parallels there? In both arguments, the opposing side won't be caught dead agreeing with the other. It does go toward what you are saying about like-minded people but there is an element there where people are afraid to be a dissenter within their group. I'll say it again: It PAINS me to be on this side of the argument! I'm usually the only the dissenter in my own circles. I'm certainly the dissenter here. One guy here even accused me of "having a bone to pick with our way of life". Go figure. But I'm not afraid. I don't care. I do care about the truth no matter how painful.

Right now Texas is winning bigtime with all the shale oil finds. All my interests in the energy are soaring. But if we don't get on board here 10 years will have come and gone and we will have bled this great state dry once again without a thing to show for it. Even if you want to believe that GW is a conspiracy you to still have to see that we are going do dry up these resources in a matter of time. We need some of these bonanzas to go toward the rebuilding of our infrastructure right now. If money is going to be spent on "green projects" for God's sake's let us spend here in our state since we are pulling the oil out from under it. I want those jobs and cash to stay HERE. In the end if we have bled this state dry and are the last ones to get started rebuilding our underlying energy production and delivery infrastructure we will truly look like a bunch of losers.
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#84

Post by BigGuy »

esxmarkc:
Very well spoken. While the number of us on this board concerned with climate change may be small, you are not the only one here. I'm heading for a meeting, so don't have time to say much more now, but just wanted to say in public that I agree with what you just said. The real question is, "What do we do about it?" I don't have much hope for positive results from the present administration.
I've got a few thought that I'll share later, when I have to time to elaborate.
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#85

Post by anygunanywhere »

The biggest polluters are the ones exempted from meeting the emissions standards that we here in the US and Texas must meet.

The US is the most environmentally regulated industrial producer in the world. Fact.

Nearly all of the steam-methane reformer based hydrogen facilities operated by my previous employer in the US had strict NOx compliance requirements and were equipped with denitrification systems (SCR catalyst based).

None of our Canadian plants had them.

None of our other plants outside the US had them.

Go to any of the industrial areas in China and try to breathe.

The "global" push for reduced consumption of fossil fuels is not based on valid science, and is totally a political agenda.

Anygunanywhere
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#86

Post by ShootDontTalk »

"So you're throwing peer review out the window? Doesn't work like that. And you don't get grants based on who you preach to. Just not how it works. Been there, seen that. You get grants based on the research you are proposing, not the outcome you intend to prove. Very little good science is ever done attempting to prove a pre-conceived outcome.
That sentence alone tells me you have never attempted to submit scientific research papers or even been a part of the process of peer review. Not unless you are in charge of defining what is "good science.

Edit to add: I suppose all the countless thousands of hours of research attempting to prove Einstein's (and many others) theories were correct don't count.
"Completely disagree. But let's "follow the money": The largest ever, irreversibly bloated, cash rich corporations have EVERYTHING to loose if it is proven that the cause is anthropogenic. And they are the LARGEST contributors to the rhetoric attempting to debunk global warming. Every last energy company has a lobbiest in the game and a scientist in the pocket.

So yea..... follow the money.... and once you have sorted through and thrown out the totally biased rhetoric generated by the energy industry as well as any other gibberish created by strictly liberal snare banging what you are left with is a pretty good body of peer-reviewed research that everyone (even you) has direct access to. Feel free to peruse it and make your educated decisions. This is all I urge any good tax-paying American to do."
I'm not sure what part you think I didn't read here. You off hand dismiss any energy company efforts as completely biased along with the loonie farm, and accept the peer review process as gospel. It is as if you really believe there is no money to be made in "green energy" and the practitioners of it are simply living hand to mouth begging alms at the city gate. If they have an idea that will work, let them develop it and sell it - with their own money. That, by voting with their hard earned dollars and at the polls, is what good tax paying Americans should do.

By the way. You really need to journey to West Texas and see the many thousands of wind mills that have covered the countryside for hundreds of square miles. All to provide 20% of the energy required for a metro area of one quarter million people. That, in my opinion, would be a much better investment in your education than reading papers about green energy.

As for your most recent post, you've gone off on a tangent. I, and many others here I suspect, have heard that tired cliche of "bleeding Texas dry" of oil since the 1960's. Maybe we'd be better to just stick to how you can buy a "green" gun that has no petroleum products in it.
Last edited by ShootDontTalk on Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
"When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk!
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Abraham
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#87

Post by Abraham »

Focusing for a moment on one so-called green approach:

Ever been close to one of those wind mills?

They're absolutely enormous and require much maintenance. It's not as if once in place they get to idyllically rotate to the whims of the winds. Not so. It takes maintenance crews to keep them up to speed. Guess how the crews get to the windmill sites...?

Once their life cycle is over (after the relatively pitiful amount of energy they produce over their life cycle) whose going to remove them and at what cost?

My guess: They'll remain in place and become an ever worse eye sore/blight on the land they stand on.

Green my posterior...

esxmarkc
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#88

Post by esxmarkc »

That sentence alone tells me you have never attempted to submit scientific research papers or even been a part of the process of peer review. Not unless you are in charge of defining what is "good science.
Well you've certainly assumed something about me only to be dead wrong. You should avoid this practice. As part of a Biomedical engineering firm here in Houston I was part of a blind peer review process on more than one occasion.
Edit to add: I suppose all the countless thousands of hours of research attempting to prove Einstein's (and many others) theories were correct don't count.

I admit I have no idea what you are attempting to say here. I'll allow you to expound on it.
I'm not sure what part you think I didn't read here. You off hand dismiss any energy company efforts as completely biased along with the loonie farm, and accept the peer review process as gospel.
I do my best do eliminate anything tied in with conflict of interest - from either side. And I accept NOTHING as gospel. Once again you assume incorrectly. Peer reviewed (published or not) gives me a path to better investigate the "interests" placed in a publication and it pre-screens the data for errors, fraud, inaccuracies, etc.
It is as if you really believe there is no money to be made in "green energy" and the practitioners of it are simply living hand to mouth begging alms at the city gate.
Did you honestly read my last post? I believe there is money to be made and IT NEEDS TO BE MADE HERE AND SPENT HERE!
By the way. You really need to journey to West Texas and see the many thousands of wind mills that have covered the countryside for hundreds of square miles. All to provide 20% of the energy required for a metro area of one quarter million people. That, in my opinion, would be a much better investment in your education than reading papers about green energy.
Once again your'e assuming I haven't done this? Wanna sit through a boring but pretty slideshow? You do know I'm into photography, right? And I read papers about EVERYTHING: Green energy, the latest hydraulicfrack methods. Did you know we live in the Laniakea Super-Cluster? http://www.scientificamerican.com/podca ... ter-found/ I have a pretty insatiable appetite for knowledge.
As for your most recent post, you've gone off on a tangent. I, and many others here I suspect, have heard that tired cliche of "bleeding Texas dry" of oil since the 1960's. Maybe we'd be better to just stick to how you can buy a "green" gun that has no petroleum products in it.

I don't think it was the least bit off-tangent. Maybe not spot-on with the OP but certainly following the current argument thread.
And get tired as you wish of the "bleeding Texas dry" cliche. I was part of it. The companies I did work for bled it and I aloofly helped them do it. And until we discovered and developed the new hydraulicfrack methods that are in play right now we were pretty successful at bleeding it pretty doggone dry. And I suspect we will succeed at it again. Seen this graph?
Image
Maybe we'd be better to just stick to how you can buy a "green" gun that has no petroleum products in it.
Now if we're gonna talk about good ol' 1911 handguns with beautifully carved wooden handles then we sir, are on the same page :tiphat:
Last edited by esxmarkc on Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:28 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Keeping the king of England out of your face since 12/05/2009

MechAg94
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#89

Post by MechAg94 »

How are you going to source your steel parts and insure they are not produced without petroleum or hydrocarbon products?

esxmarkc
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Re: 'If you don't believe in climate change you must be sick

#90

Post by esxmarkc »

MechAg94 wrote:How are you going to source your steel parts and insure they are not produced without petroleum or hydrocarbon products?
Are we ever going to be able to mine and source the raw materials without the use of fossil fuels? That sir, is the billion dollar question.

Will we ever be able to machine it without the use of fossil fuels? That sir, is on our horizon: https://blog.solidconcepts.com/industry ... metal-gun/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Keeping the king of England out of your face since 12/05/2009
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