CHL Holder in Mall Attack... video

[Jaguar]

It is my belief that Audie Murphy and Alvin York shook like a leaf in a hurricane once the the action was over and the full realization of what occurred hit them. In earlier years Hollywood glossed over this part. Band of Brothers shows 70 and 80 yrs old men being interviewed and still having visceral reactions to the memories of what happened at the Battle of the Bulge and D-Day. No shame in that; or this young man's reaction.

[WildBill]

Band of Brothers shows 70 and 80 yrs old men being interviewed and still having visceral reactions to the memories of what happened at the Battle of the Bulge and D-Day. No shame in that; or this young man's reaction.

[OCD]

He protected himself, his friend, and her small child. He did a good job.

[RoyGBiv]

He protected himself, his friend, and her small child. He did a good job.

Impossible for me to MMQB this one. After watching him interviewed, I'm gonna take him at his word and pray I never have to face the same decision.

[Beiruty]

If It was me, and I saw the shooter was struggling with Jammed Rifle, I would charge forward and and at close range, would order the shooter to freeze and hit the floor, or shot center mass if needed to be. It was a missed opportunity but the the CHLer said, the shooter shot himself a moment later. So, it is mute decision.

[Excaliber]

Three major points are being missed here:

1. The CHL holder stated he had tunnel vision which had narrowed his perception to his front sight on the shooter's head. He recognized what was happening to him because of the psychobiological effects of a life threatening encounter and knew he had lost the ability to see peripheral activity around the shooter, which could have included people running for their lives. Those who have experienced this phenomenon know it is like looking at your surroundings through the tube left over when your paper towel roll is empty. He also recognized that if he chose to fire, he might have hit one of those people he couldn't see. He made a conscious decision not to fire under those circumstances - unlike the NYPD officer who blasted away outside the Empire State Building and put bullets into 9 innocent bystanders.

2. The CHL holder's quivering voice in the video does not come from cowardice or a manliness deficit. It comes from the strong emotions that flood one's mind and the effects on one's body after an encounter like the one he went through. Don't misinterpret this. It does not mean he lacked courage, and is no reflection at all on how he performed during the incident. If you are involved in a deadly force encounter, there's about a 90% chance you'll find your voice quivering when discussing it shortly afterwards as well. If that happens, I hope you'll be judged more charitably than some have here.

3. From the information I've seen to date, the CHL holder's presentation of his gun and the shooter's sight of it may very well have been what triggered the shooter's decision to end the incident by suicide immediately afterwards even though the CHL holder had not fired. Many active shooters plan to kill themselves as soon as they are presented with countervailing deadly force so they can maintain control of their own destiny until the end. If the CHL holder had not acted, the incident may well have continued until police were able to engage the BG.

In my view, this man acted courageously and made the best decisions available in a very tough situation. Real life is not as neat when it's happening as it appears to have been on Monday morning when all the quarterbacks who weren't there at game time weigh in.

[TheDude]

See video below. I cannot figure out how to embed the video so just use the link. Not sure if this has been posted or discussed elsewhere on the board but i searched and found nothing. It was shared with me earlier so thought most here would find it interesting to say the least. Guy didn't fire but it sure sounds like once the shooter saw him working on a shot he killed himself. At what point do you have to just fire. I mean backdrop is going to be a possible risk but if he the guy is just killing everyone do you risk it and take the shot?

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[Excaliber]

If It was me, and I saw the shooter was struggling with Jammed Rifle, I would charge forward and and at close range, would order the shooter to freeze and hit the floor, or shot center mass if needed to be. It was a missed opportunity but the the CHLer said, the shooter shot himself a moment later. So, it is mute decision.

We may not all agree on the best approach under any given set of circumstances. However, the above cited tactic has historically worked better in the movies than it does in real life. The concept of "fighting fair" applies in sporting arenas, not deadly force encounters where there is no second place winner and only results count. A shooter whose gun is momentarily out of action is a threat that has momentarily paused his attack, but if he's trying to get it back into action he is still a deadly threat.

The officer who stopped the North Carolina nursing home shooter a couple of years ago used exactly the tactic suggested when he encountered the shooter who had just emptied his shotgun and was beginning to reload it. The officer repeatedly ordered the shooter to drop the gun. The shooter responded by firing on the officer and wounding him before the officer returned fire and disabled the gunman. When a family member asked the officer if he would use the same tactic next time, he reportedly replied, "Never again!"

[WildBill]

Three major points are being missed here: 1 ...
In my view, this man acted courageously and made the best decisions available in a very tough situation. Real life is not as neat when it's happening as it appears to have been on Monday morning when all the quarterbacks who weren't there at game time weigh in.

He said it better than I could have, but Excaliber's post pretty much sums up my own thoughts.

[TheDude]

from the comments:

he choked plain and simple, I didn't want to shoot because of other people" that fine but to leave and hide in a store is not...thats a choke. if anything run up on him and cap his <expletive>

What is wrong with people?! Again, a CHL is not a batman license. You are not a LEO. You have no obligation to do anything other than protect you and yours. You can armchair quarterback it all you want, but in the end, you are nothing more than an Internet Commando, wannabe tough guy.

I swear, I need to stop reading the comments on these articles and videos. They make me angry sometimes.

Not me, like I said he choked. Fine he made a decision not to shoot because of other behind the shooter and that is commendable but to go and hide in a store is just wrong when you are the only thing stopping him from shooting more people and he want to be a cop...Wrong. Never give up never surrender, this guy is only showing his face because the shooter killed himself, if he would have shot someone else we would have never heard from him. What if he is a cop and chokes when a fellow cop is in the line of fire or worse, cover his butt if you want I have no respect for him. God forbid if someone lets him be a cop

Says the guy who has apparently never been in a shooting situation.

Oh and the guy had a RIFLE the odds weren't exactly in his favor if he missed. Either way sounds like it stopped him from doing any further shooting. Its easy to sit at our computers and say what we would have done. All it takes is some training with a carbine to realize Rifle trumps Handgun almost every time. If he was from an elevated position maybe but i don't want to go head on with an AR if all i have is my carry gun with 11rds. I am not gonna judge him. Quote by Mike Tyson: Everybody has a plan until they get punched

[tacticool]

He was armed. He didn't panic. He had or made a plan. He executed the plan. As a result, neither he nor the people in his care were injured or killed.

If only every adult in that mall could say the same.

[baldeagle]

Impossible to know all the "what-if's" or to criticize when not actually being there as part of the situation. I get all that.

However, consider this scenario where I had an active shooter in my sights, determined I could not shoot without risking 3rd parties, chose to retreat, and then the shooter went on to kill more people. I would find that very, very difficult to live with.

Except that's not what happened.

[mrvmax]

My CHL does not make me law enforcement, my primary purpose is to protect my wife (who has been assaulted once and robbed at gunpoint) and my daughter. If I can do that and protect others I will, but my primary job is protecting my family. Now, I would like to think I could have protected them and kept the guy from killing others, but, I have never been in that situation. You always get people stating what they would have done (while posting from the comfort of their climate controlled abode) but in reality there are not a lot of us that have faced these situations. I have a customer that was ODA 585, 5th Special Forces (now retired). I would believe what he told me he would do since he has been shot at before, many times, and has trained for the last 20 plus years for situations like that. As for me, I was EOD and have never been shot at with anything other than a BB gun. I try and go over in my mind what I think I would do, but hopefully I will never have to make that choice.

[Rrash]

They train LEOs for this type of situation

so was Audrey murphy or Alvin York trained for what they did. Warriors are forged on the battle field but heroes are found in the most unlikely places. He could have shot up in the celling, could have yelled, could have done something but he chose to go hide

we seen teachers with no training (woman, god bless them) and men die to protect others so say what you want this guy needs to find a rock

Are you really comparing Congressional Medal of Honor recipients to some dude Christmas shopping in a mall who happens to have a CHL? And by the way, its Audie Murphy, not "Audrey".

[chasfm11]

He was armed. He didn't panic. He had or made a plan. He executed the plan. As a result, neither he nor the people in his care were injured or killed.

If only every adult in that mall could say the same.

And I'm an outcomes guy.
1. The shooter did not cause any more harm after his confrontation with the CHL except to himself. The CHL is not responsible for what the BG did before the confrontation with the CHL.
2. No additional innocent lives where lost because at CHL tried to take out a BG and missed. Let's review the situation where two of NYPD's finest took on a BG and the collateral damage was appalling.