Impeachment question

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Impeachment question

#16

Post by The Annoyed Man »

Soccerdad1995 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:03 pm With the talk of impeaching Trump, even after he leaves office, so he cannot run for President in 2024, and the talk of impeaching sitting Republican representatives and Senators, it occurs to me that this could establish a very dangerous precedent.
Yes. Yes it will.
Soccerdad1995 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:03 pm Theoretically, what would stop a future Congress that was heavily dominated by one party from impeaching all congressional members of the opposing party and assuming 100% control forevermore? That would also extend to the White House if they were to simply impeach the opposing parties Presidential candidate, say a month before the election (assuming that person had ever held Federal office in the past).
Theoretically, nothing could stop it.
Soccerdad1995 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:03 pm It appears that the only things keeping this from happening are the fact that it would be highly unlikely for one party to get a 2/3 majority in the senate, and common decency / decorum. Not to mention the very real threat of further provoking a civil war. Hopefully I am mistaken and there are other safeguards to keep something like this from occurring?
Decorum? Are you talking about our Congress? These people truthfully don’t care whether or not their viciousness kicks off violent unrest.Why? Because they’re the ones who buy ink by the barrel. When they’re finished, Bob's your uncle.........it will be all your fault, and that’s what all the bobble-heads will believe.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

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2farnorth
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Re: Impeachment question

#17

Post by 2farnorth »

Question I must ask again: What does Pelosi have that is making all the Dems vote in lock step with her. There actually are some "good" democrats but what has happened to them? None will vote their conscience or for the good of our republic. It's almost like they all are being blackmailed. :confused5
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Re: Impeachment question

#18

Post by srothstein »

2farnorth wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:35 am Question I must ask again: What does Pelosi have that is making all the Dems vote in lock step with her. There actually are some "good" democrats but what has happened to them? None will vote their conscience or for the good of our republic. It's almost like they all are being blackmailed. :confused5
In one of the police forums I hang out in, a friend of mine posted that there were no good FBI agents left because none stood up to the administration and spoke out about the corruption. I disputed this and said that I know there are still good agents at the field level, but there must be reasons for them not to speak up. I even said that they may believe they could do more by staying on the inside and fighting from within. When the FBI made so many arrests after the capitol riot and none after the others, I reposted in that thread and said I may need to rethink my position. For them to have participated in that, there may not be any good agents left after all. If you don't stand up at a certain point, you are no longer trying to fight the system from within, you are part of it.

From the way they continue to vote in lockstep with Pelosi, with not one voting against the second impeachment, I would have to say the same thing. There may not be any good Democrats left in Congress.
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03Lightningrocks
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Re: Impeachment question

#19

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

srothstein wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:14 am
2farnorth wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:35 am Question I must ask again: What does Pelosi have that is making all the Dems vote in lock step with her. There actually are some "good" democrats but what has happened to them? None will vote their conscience or for the good of our republic. It's almost like they all are being blackmailed. :confused5
In one of the police forums I hang out in, a friend of mine posted that there were no good FBI agents left because none stood up to the administration and spoke out about the corruption. I disputed this and said that I know there are still good agents at the field level, but there must be reasons for them not to speak up. I even said that they may believe they could do more by staying on the inside and fighting from within. When the FBI made so many arrests after the capitol riot and none after the others, I reposted in that thread and said I may need to rethink my position. For them to have participated in that, there may not be any good agents left after all. If you don't stand up at a certain point, you are no longer trying to fight the system from within, you are part of it.

From the way they continue to vote in lockstep with Pelosi, with not one voting against the second impeachment, I would have to say the same thing. There may not be any good Democrats left in Congress.
Aman to that. I would add that Pelosi does control a whole lot of money that the congress people rely on for re-election. That may also be part of their fear.

jerry_r60
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Re: Impeachment question

#20

Post by jerry_r60 »

2farnorth wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:35 am Question I must ask again: What does Pelosi have that is making all the Dems vote in lock step with her. There actually are some "good" democrats but what has happened to them? None will vote their conscience or for the good of our republic. It's almost like they all are being blackmailed. :confused5
Majority party leadership controls their party committee assignments. This controls what kind of power a congressman has in congress and the rise and fall of their profile during their tenure. Leadership can also control if any bills generated by a congressman see the light of day. Leadership can control party campaign funding. Congress plays a part in control on funding making it's way back to states and districts.

Reelection is tough with obscure committee assignments (or none), no bills being passed, limited campaign funds and not bringing home the bacon.

MaduroBU
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Re: Impeachment question

#21

Post by MaduroBU »

Theoretically, what would stop a future Congress that was heavily dominated by one party from impeaching all congressional members of the opposing party and assuming 100% control forevermore? That would also extend to the White House if they were to simply impeach the opposing parties Presidential candidate, say a month before the election (assuming that person had ever held Federal office in the past).
It is part of coordinated effort. The democrats believe that if they can pack the supreme court, add states that are exceedingly likely to vote for them, and remove those who oppose them now, then they can hold power perpetually and crush all opposition. That is an exceedingly dangerous game, and there are two chief threats to it (and by extension all Americans).

First, and less likely, is the risk that geographically concentrated and politically disenfranchised people band together and leave, otherwise known as secession. A political system can tolerate dispersed politically disenfranchised people and it can tolerate geographically concentrated people who still feel that they are represented as the "loyal opposition", but not the combination of disenfranchisement and concentration. A serious effort to change the rules of the game to one side's advantage based upon razor thin political majorities could easily be a spark that ignites a fire. Note that people underestimate this risk due to the precedent of the Civil War, which isn't a good analogy. The divide now is urban vs. rural, which implies a very different geographic boundary. No state is likely to secede, but perhaps 70-80% of counties might. I believe that we are fortunate to have enough sane people left in congress that these measures will fail. Further, I believe that issue number 2 will rapidly overtake these considerations.

I make no secret of my belief that the American and more broadly world economies have been on very poor footing since 2000, more acutely since 2008, and immediately since 2018. The decline of working people in the form of lower relative wages in the face of massive wealth accumulation by the top 1% is the major driver that leads to political results (i.e. there are people who will vote R or D no matter what, but the true undecided voters just want help). We have pushed our bastardized version of Keynesian economics (instead of save in good times and spend in bad times, the government just borrows and spends no matter what) to its breaking point. We have leaned heavily upon the world reserve status of the dollar while neglecting the factors that provided and maintained that windfall. Meanwhile the unrestrained printing of money has favored the stock market at the expense of everyone who is not heavily invested in it. We are now so desperate to maintain the facade that we have resorted to massive, ongoing Federal Reserve purchases of risky loan assets and helicopter money. We have pushed the economy into a deeply unstable position in which a stagflationary recession is essentially unavoidable; recall that Volker's solution to that problem in 1980-1983 was an FFR between 10 and 17%. How will the stock market or even the underlying companies comprising it fare if a 30 year Treasury carries 18.5% or a 15 year home mortgage yields 20%?

I was deeply worried when Trump was elected because his decision to continue the economic policies of Clinton, Bush II and Obama made another crash on his watch almost certain. He pushed the printing press to the limit, and combined with the corporate tax cut, managed to push that evil off for 4 years. Had the crash occurred while he was in office, I believe that the fallout would've included a massive wave of socialist fervor in the US that would've changed the fabric of our nation and economy irreparably. As it stands, that wave will crash on the Democrats, not for them. If the GOP has any political intelligence (I am not convinced that they do), they will seize upon the profound economic hardship, lay the blame squarely upon the Democrats, and win control of the House and Senate in 2022. The would then be in excellent position in 2024, running against a senile old guy whose campaign slogan was "Not Trump" or a VP who garnered exactly zero votes in her own party's primary.

As a libertarian, I view one party rule as dangerous regardless of which party is in control, and the self-reinforcing oscillation of "You did this to us the last time that you held power, so we'll swat you down even harder now that we've got the chance" is ultimately self-destructive. I believe that the only cure is for people to speak earnestly with one another about what they actually want from government in very general terms, rather than parroting policy positions or defending politicians (most of whom wind up being pretty slimy). There are plenty of crazy people shouting insane things in the political sphere, but there are far more people who just want a good job, healthcare and education. Most people who are anti-gun hold that view because they have seen guns as portrayed by Hollywood (people being shot) and the news (people being shot), which would grossly distort ANYONE's view if not countered by other information (i.e. seeing how firearms are actually used).

These impeachment proceedings drive us closer to the terrible outcomes outlined above, and are dangerous to America regardless of one's political leanings or thoughts on Mr. Donald J. Trump. I will continue to pray for our nation.
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