VoiceofReason wrote:Come on people. It was on a highway, it was charging first responders “as they worked to get the driver and passenger out of the car”.
The deputies get a little paid vacation then back to work and the owner of the bull got what he deserved.
Just got back to reading this thread. Regardless of the outcome of the investigation in the death of the rancher, I believe that's the most callous, cruel and disrespectful statement I've ever read on this forum. I can only imagine your were being sarcastic.
If the road is open range, the deputies might be in trouble.
Idaho does have "herd" districts where animals are required to be fenced. However, I find no herd districts within Adams county where this incident took place. If so the bull had the right to be on the road way and the rancher had the right to protect his property. The car owner would have been liable for any damage to the bull or his or her vehicle.
If this is true and the deputies are ignorant of the law, they should be charged with second degree murder.
If the accident was in an open range county (not all are, some are "herd districts") and not on a federal highway, then the driver of the car involved will likely be liable for hitting the bull, and the rancher (or his estate) not liable for the accident. I just don't see any implementation of an open range law that will put the deputies in legal jeopardy if they deemed the first responders were in physical jeopardy from the bull and they shot it. The most that would have happened is the county paying a civil payment. As to what happened between the rancher and the deputies, whoever can be shown to have used or threatened to use unlawful deadly force against the other will be the ones having a problem. Should wait for more details, but my money is not on the deputies having a problem with this either.
If this proves to be open range then the public is responsible for avoiding the bull not killing it. Where are the ranchers property rights. Don't like the law? Move or change it.
If that’s “the most callous, cruel and disrespectful statement you’ve ever read on this forum then you didn’t read the statements I emphasized above.
At the time of my comment there was discussion under the headline "Rancher defending his bull, dies in deputy shootout". Comments were being made that sounded like the injured people in the car were being blamed and should be punished, and the rancher was in the right defending his bull with deadly force.
My comment was to remind folks that two or maybe four human lives are worth more than any bull, the deputies will not be punished, and if the rancher threatened the deputies with a gun then he got what he deserved.
In my book comparing your comments to others arguing legal theory doesn't compare to stating with virtually no factual information that a man deserved to die at the hands of two, I assume good men who will merely take a little paid time off and then go about business as usual. I stand by my comments and I believe if you stood in front of the officers and the family of the deceased rancher and made those same comments their reaction would be the same. Maybe it's just me. You made your argument and I made mine so I'll leave it at that.
EDITED for clarification: I was framing my comment based on VoiceofReason's post. Just so it's clear; I am not bashing the deputies. I am sure they are devastated by the turn of events and would never treat the taking of a life flippantly.
Last edited by puma guy on Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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VoiceofReason wrote:Come on people. It was on a highway, it was charging first responders “as they worked to get the driver and passenger out of the car”.
The deputies get a little paid vacation then back to work and the owner of the bull got what he deserved.
Just got back to reading this thread. Regardless of the outcome of the investigation in the death of the rancher, I believe that's the most callous, cruel and disrespectful statement I've ever read on this forum. I can only imagine your were being sarcastic.
If the road is open range, the deputies might be in trouble.
Idaho does have "herd" districts where animals are required to be fenced. However, I find no herd districts within Adams county where this incident took place. If so the bull had the right to be on the road way and the rancher had the right to protect his property. The car owner would have been liable for any damage to the bull or his or her vehicle.
If this is true and the deputies are ignorant of the law, they should be charged with second degree murder.
If the accident was in an open range county (not all are, some are "herd districts") and not on a federal highway, then the driver of the car involved will likely be liable for hitting the bull, and the rancher (or his estate) not liable for the accident. I just don't see any implementation of an open range law that will put the deputies in legal jeopardy if they deemed the first responders were in physical jeopardy from the bull and they shot it. The most that would have happened is the county paying a civil payment. As to what happened between the rancher and the deputies, whoever can be shown to have used or threatened to use unlawful deadly force against the other will be the ones having a problem. Should wait for more details, but my money is not on the deputies having a problem with this either.
If this proves to be open range then the public is responsible for avoiding the bull not killing it. Where are the ranchers property rights. Don't like the law? Move or change it.
If that’s “the most callous, cruel and disrespectful statement you’ve ever read on this forum then you didn’t read the statements I emphasized above.
At the time of my comment there was discussion under the headline "Rancher defending his bull, dies in deputy shootout". Comments were being made that sounded like the injured people in the car were being blamed and should be punished, and the rancher was in the right defending his bull with deadly force.
My comment was to remind folks that two or maybe four human lives are worth more than any bull, the deputies will not be punished, and if the rancher threatened the deputies with a gun then he got what he deserved.
In my book comparing your comments to others arguing legal theory doesn't compare to stating with virtually no factual information that a man deserved to die at the hands of two, I assume good men who will merely take a little paid time off and then go about business as usual. I stand by my comments and I believe if you stood in front of the officers and the family of the deceased rancher and made those same comments their reaction would be the same. Maybe it's just me. You made your argument and I made mine so I'll leave it at that.
If I was still a Sheriffs Deputy I would not have called the owner of the bull until it was all over. When the bull first charged the Paramedics or Firemen trying to get the victims out of the car, I would have thrown a couple of slugs in my shotgun and put the bull down.
Comments were being made that sounded like the injured people in the car were being blamed and should be punished, and the rancher was in the right defending his bull with deadly force. That was per the headline and if in fact was right I stand by my comments.
God Bless America, and please hurry. When I was young I knew all the answers. When I got older I started to realize I just hadn’t quite understood the questions.-Me
VoiceofReason wrote:
Comments were being made that sounded like the injured people in the car were being blamed and should be punished, and the rancher was in the right defending his bull with deadly force. That was per the headline and if in fact was right I stand by my comments.
I think there was some discussion of liability not punishment. You hit a bull in some parts of the country on a back road - you are responsible and liable for the 'property damage'... They are kinda hard to miss and stop/avoid unless you are driving like an idiot.
"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny" - Thomas Jefferson
The vehicle driver is liable for damages. It would be ashamed to have a Deputy like VOR who would enforce his own version of the law and not the actual law.
MONGOOSE wrote:The vehicle driver is liable for damages. It would be ashamed to have a Deputy like VOR who would enforce his own version of the law and not the actual law.
I was a deputy and human life is more valuable than any property or livestock. Period.
God Bless America, and please hurry. When I was young I knew all the answers. When I got older I started to realize I just hadn’t quite understood the questions.-Me
MONGOOSE wrote:The vehicle driver is liable for damages. It would be ashamed to have a Deputy like VOR who would enforce his own version of the law and not the actual law.
I was a deputy and human life is more valuable than any property or livestock. Period.
MONGOOSE wrote:The vehicle driver is liable for damages. It would be ashamed to have a Deputy like VOR who would enforce his own version of the law and not the actual law.
I was a deputy and human life is more valuable than any property or livestock. Period.
Your opinion. Period
So you are saying that livestock or property is more valuable than human life?
God Bless America, and please hurry. When I was young I knew all the answers. When I got older I started to realize I just hadn’t quite understood the questions.-Me
MONGOOSE wrote:The vehicle driver is liable for damages. It would be ashamed to have a Deputy like VOR who would enforce his own version of the law and not the actual law.
I was a deputy and human life is more valuable than any property or livestock. Period.
Your opinion. Period
No the law says that in that situation the humans life is most definitely more valuable. Why would anyone argue about that?
MONGOOSE wrote:The vehicle driver is liable for damages. It would be ashamed to have a Deputy like VOR who would enforce his own version of the law and not the actual law.
I was a deputy and human life is more valuable than any property or livestock. Period.
Your opinion. Period
No the law says that in that situation the humans life is most definitely more valuable. Why would anyone argue about that?
God Bless America, and please hurry. When I was young I knew all the answers. When I got older I started to realize I just hadn’t quite understood the questions.-Me
Is the real crux of this argument which is more valuable? Isn't it more about good judgement and discernment?
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mojo84 wrote:I think a video from either a body or dash camera would be very helpful in determining what actually happened.
Maybe I need to re-read the articles but I just don't get the impression the rancher had the intent to use his gun to inflict harm on the cops or other people. It also appears some bad judgement was used by several people involved including the rancher.
I got the impression that the rancher was about to put down the bull himself when the deputy startled him, causing him to spin around and experience an AD/ND (depending on your POV), which the officers interpreted as an attack, which they (rightly or wrongly) used as justification to "return fire", which killed the rancher.
IIRC, all I've read is the stuff that's been posted here. Dunno, maybe I missed something.
Edit: Oh, I missed the "don't" in your post.
I am not a lawyer, nor have I played one on TV, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, nor should anything I say be taken as legal advice. If it is important that any information be accurate, do not use me as the only source.
mojo84 wrote:I think a video from either a body or dash camera would be very helpful in determining what actually happened.
Maybe I need to re-read the articles but I just don't get the impression the rancher had the intent to use his gun to inflict harm on the cops or other people. It also appears some bad judgement was used by several people involved including the rancher.
I got the impression that the rancher was about to put down the bull himself when the deputy startled him, causing him to spin around and experience an AD/ND (depending on your POV), which the officers interpreted as an attack, which they (rightly or wrongly) used as justification to "return fire", which killed the rancher.
IIRC, all I've read is the stuff that's been posted here. Dunno, maybe I missed something.
Edit: Oh, I missed the "don't" in your post.
You know that may be the most likely explanation for what happened I've heard so far. All we really have is the basic info from the police, and they are unlikely to say more until a full investigation is done, and a highly emotional response from the family that is hard to believe true. I haven't believed we have enough info to really know what happened but your scenario would fit with the families statments pretty darn well and certainly seem more likely than that the cops killed the rancher just because.
mojo84 wrote:I think a video from either a body or dash camera would be very helpful in determining what actually happened.
Maybe I need to re-read the articles but I just don't get the impression the rancher had the intent to use his gun to inflict harm on the cops or other people. It also appears some bad judgement was used by several people involved including the rancher.
I got the impression that the rancher was about to put down the bull himself when the deputy startled him, causing him to spin around and experience an AD/ND (depending on your POV), which the officers interpreted as an attack, which they (rightly or wrongly) used as justification to "return fire", which killed the rancher.
IIRC, all I've read is the stuff that's been posted here. Dunno, maybe I missed something.
Edit: Oh, I missed the "don't" in your post.
You know that may be the most likely explanation for what happened I've heard so far. All we really have is the basic info from the police, and they are unlikely to say more until a full investigation is done, and a highly emotional response from the family that is hard to believe true. I haven't believed we have enough info to really know what happened but your scenario would fit with the families statments pretty darn well and certainly seem more likely than that the cops killed the rancher just because.
Dave's scenario is Very close to the impression I had all along about what happened.
Last edited by mojo84 on Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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