Moms Demand Action Seeks to Change 30.06 Signage Requirement

[BigGuy]

From the article in the OP:

"Dianna Barker was shot at a restaurant when another diner’s pistol fell out of a pocket and accidentally went off."

Yeah, I'm calling bovine excrement on that. For that to happen, the gun would have to be either an antique, or unbelievably defective.

It happened. It was discussed on this forum. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41205&hilit=houston+derringer+shot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sad. It appears the gentleman carrying the gun made some very bad decisions. And for any gun to go off simply from being dropped requires it to be negligently maintained, or a design old enough to not have adequate safeguards. I'd like to know more about the gun in question. The only description I could find in the links was, "derringer."

[budroux2w]

Is it just me or has there been an uptick of "can i carry here" threads by new members? I know that question pops up a lot since i have been mostly lurkin here for a few years, just seem like there have been more than normal, maybe I'm paranoid.

[jmra]

Is it just me or has there been an uptick of "can i carry here" threads by new members? I know that question pops up a lot since i have been mostly lurkin here for a few years, just seem like there have been more than normal, maybe I'm paranoid.

Yep. That and the "I thought you couldn't carry at church". There is a disconnect is the transfer of information somewhere. I don't believe it has anything to do with the shorter classes because the problem existed prior to that change. I could be wrong, but it seems I remember DPS increasing the number of classes for CHL instructors a while back because of the huge demand for the classes. Perhaps the problem is with inexperienced instructors who only teach the occasional class and never bothered to properly learn the laws or don't keep up with the laws adequately. If so, hopefully the changes in the instructor requirements will weed some of these guys out.

[jbarn]

Is it just me or has there been an uptick of "can i carry here" threads by new members? I know that question pops up a lot since i have been mostly lurkin here for a few years, just seem like there have been more than normal, maybe I'm paranoid.

Yep. That and the "I thought you couldn't carry at church". There is a disconnect is the transfer of information somewhere. I don't believe it has anything to do with the shorter classes because the problem existed prior to that change. I could be wrong, but it seems I remember DPS increasing the number of classes for CHL instructors a while back because of the huge demand for the classes. Perhaps the problem is with inexperienced instructors who only teach the occasional class and never bothered to properly learn the laws or don't keep up with the laws adequately. If so, hopefully the changes in the instructor requirements will weed some of these guys out.

The new requirment is simply that Instructor applicants must hold some other instructor certification. I agree that will weed out some folks, like those who would never bother to do anything towards their instructor development other than take the mandated DPS class.

I do not; however, think the problem lies solely, or even mostly, with instructors. When I teach a class of 20 all 20 people get the same information delivered in the same manner. I will cover points two or three times, yet 19 people will get a question right on the test and 1 person misses it. Is that an instructor problem? Some folks just don't pay attention. Some folks zone out for a period of time. Some folks arrive at class with preconceived beliefs, and despite being shown facts refuse to change their minds. They then go out and still believe the erroneous information.

There are other factors. For example, I when I teach 46.035 I explain the locations off limits in detail. What I found was that, on occasion, some students would go home and read the DPS booklet on their own and see the section about churches being off limits. They assumed they missed me talk about churches, or I just failed to list churches. The reality is they failed to read on in the law to learn the rest of the info about churches, and they live forward believing churches are off limits until they come here 3 years later. They don't remember from where they got the idead that churches are off limits, so it must have been their instructor.

I changed my lesson plan to specifically explain to the class how churches, hospitals, nursing homes, meetings of government entities and amusement parks work in relation to the law.

All sorts of things cause students to believe the wrong thing. Sometimes it is the instructor, sometimes not. I assisted an instructor once with HIS class. His leg was injured and he didn't think he could adequately handle the range. I was there when he told his class that even if 30.06 signs are posted somewhere, one could only be arrested if the owner verbally told you to leave and you refused.

[jmra]

I assisted an instructor once with HIS class. His leg was injured and he didn't think he could adequately handle the range. I was there when he told his class that even if 30.06 signs are posted somewhere, one could only be arrested if the owner verbally told you to leave and you refused.

[/quote]
This is the guy I'm talking about. Yes, he is only one instructor and he can only teach so many students but if only 1 out of every 10 instructors are teaching incorrect information that can amount to a huge number of students. Anyone think my estimate is high? Last I checked (been a few months) the FAQ section of the DPS website still said it was illegal to carry in a place of worship. If the instructors of the instructors can't get it right...

[gthaustex]

I assisted an instructor once with HIS class. His leg was injured and he didn't think he could adequately handle the range. I was there when he told his class that even if 30.06 signs are posted somewhere, one could only be arrested if the owner verbally told you to leave and you refused.

This is the guy I'm talking about. Yes, he is only one instructor and he can only teach so many students but if only 1 out of every 10 instructors are teaching incorrect information that can amount to a huge number of students. Anyone think my estimate is high? Last I checked (been a few months) the FAQ section of the DPS website still said it was illegal to carry in a place of worship. If the instructors of the instructors can't get it right...[/quote]

Still there....no mention of having to have 30.06 posted in several of these cases to make it illegal...

From the DPS FAQ on the DPS website:

"Yes. §46.035, Texas Penal Code prohibits carrying of handguns and other weapons in certain places. These include but are not limited to:

On the premises of a business that derives 51% or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption
On the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting or interscholastic event is taking place
On the premises of a correctional facility
On the premises of a hospital or nursing home (unless licensee has written authorization)
In an amusement park
On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other place of worship
At any meeting of a governmental entity"

[polly]

Interesting to me how the story says the signs "violate" state law....and then how CHLs "target" their businesses....

Maybe they're reading gun forums where people say to ignore parking lot signs, signs with 7/8" letters, etc.

[baldeagle]

Instead of complaining about it, I sent the following to my representative and Senator:

Please ask the DPS to correct the following errors in their FAQ:

FAQ question #34 is incorrect:

34. I am a Texas Concealed Handgun License (CHL) holder. Are there any places where I cannot carry my concealed handgun?
Yes. §46.035, Texas Penal Code prohibits carrying of handguns and other weapons in certain places. These include but are not limited to:

On the premises of a business that derives 51% or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption
On the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting or interscholastic event is taking place
On the premises of a correctional facility
On the premises of a hospital or nursing home (unless licensee has written authorization)
In an amusement park
On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other place of worship
At any meeting of a governmental entity

The law was amended as follows:

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
(j) Subsections (a) and (b)(1) do not apply to a historical
reenactment performed in compliance with the rules of the Texas
Alcoholic Beverage Commission.
(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1)
that the actor was not given effective notice under Section
411.204, Government Code.

Therefore, hospitals, amusement parks, places of worship and governmental meetings MUST place 30:06 signs or it is legal to carry. It is also legal to carry in a 51% establishment which is not properly signed.

I also sent the same message to DPS on their contact page.

[jmra]

Instead of complaining about it, I sent the following to my representative and Senator:

Please ask the DPS to correct the following errors in their FAQ:

FAQ question #34 is incorrect:

34. I am a Texas Concealed Handgun License (CHL) holder. Are there any places where I cannot carry my concealed handgun?
Yes. §46.035, Texas Penal Code prohibits carrying of handguns and other weapons in certain places. These include but are not limited to:

On the premises of a business that derives 51% or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption
On the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting or interscholastic event is taking place
On the premises of a correctional facility
On the premises of a hospital or nursing home (unless licensee has written authorization)
In an amusement park
On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other place of worship
At any meeting of a governmental entity

The law was amended as follows:

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
(j) Subsections (a) and (b)(1) do not apply to a historical
reenactment performed in compliance with the rules of the Texas
Alcoholic Beverage Commission.
(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1)
that the actor was not given effective notice under Section
411.204, Government Code.

Therefore, hospitals, amusement parks, places of worship and governmental meetings MUST place 30:06 signs or it is legal to carry. It is also legal to carry in a 51% establishment which is not properly signed.

I also sent the same message to DPS on their contact page.

Please let us know if you get a response.

[bagman45]

As I posited on another post; This noise obviously does NOBODY any good. On the other hand, has anyone considered that this may actually be a Bloomberg or other anti-gun funded group??? WOW, what a GREAT way to turn the average "I don't really have an opinion about guns" person into someone who WOULD support more gun control.... Don't think the other side is that smart, but then again, the best way to destroy ANY group is from WITHIN.... Has anyone done any research on the folks in this group and their CURRENT political affiliations????? Just sayin'......

[Vol Texan]

Is it just me or has there been an uptick of "can i carry here" threads by new members? I know that question pops up a lot since i have been mostly lurkin here for a few years, just seem like there have been more than normal, maybe I'm paranoid.

Yep. That and the "I thought you couldn't carry at church". There is a disconnect is the transfer of information somewhere. I don't believe it has anything to do with the shorter classes because the problem existed prior to that change. I could be wrong, but it seems I remember DPS increasing the number of classes for CHL instructors a while back because of the huge demand for the classes. Perhaps the problem is with inexperienced instructors who only teach the occasional class and never bothered to properly learn the laws or don't keep up with the laws adequately. If so, hopefully the changes in the instructor requirements will weed some of these guys out.

I'll take a nibble at budroux2w's hook on this one...

Perhaps the well-funded Bloomberg organization is just doing a bit of opposition research? It wouldn't surprise me a bit if they signed up for a number of different usernames, lurked for a while, and even posted some inquisitive postings trying to get a feel for how we respond? What better way to find any and all so-called 'loopholes' (as they may call them) in the law?

Yeah, it's a stretch, but it is a learning from Sun Tsu...keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. As distasteful as it is, I log into the Daily KOS, Huffington Post, etc. on a regular basis so I can see how the enemy thinks.

And yes, I did use the 'E' word to describe them.