Probable Cause? Ha ha ha....we don't need no probable cause

[rotor]

To be a devils advocate, what if the police were watching a suspected meth shop and checking the license plates of every person going in or out? And then checking garbage of those people to see if there were traces of amphetamines or whatever one tests for? Would we be so critical or would that be considered good police work.

Where can you buy meth legally?

It has been ruled over and over that possession of legal objects that have sometimes been used by criminals to commit crimes is NOT reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed or that the possessor intends to commit a crime.

My reference was that the police were not doing anything illegal by watching the hydroponics shop (or a house suspected but not proven to be a meth house), capturing their license plate numbers, and checking their trash. This could be looked at as good investigative work in the case of the suspected meth lab and possible over-reactive work in the case of the hydroponics shop. Police have been known to set up sting operations too and as far as I know they are legal. I don't think this is an argument about the legality of marijuana. I don't even think this is an argument. I premised this as being a devils advocate. But I was happy to know in my city that the police had targeted suspected meth dealers and were going after the people they were selling to as well as the dealers.

[EEllis]

I knew a SGT. with the HCSD who was a part of a OC task force. He told this story of working an extra job at Sams wholesale. A guy bought a bunch of plastic wrap, not food grade but what you would wrap pallets of merch in. I don't know what it was about the guy but that was enough to raise suspicion and on to a house in the valley with a empty garage and then to a 1000lb bust in Chicago. The product may be legal but it's purchase in the correct situation can of course lead to additional investigation. Now if you wish to argue the efficacy of field test kits and their false positive rate being so high they shouldn't be allowed, in the current form, as PC then fine. That is a reasonable thing to argue in the courts. The idea that since an activity is legal it can't help form PC just misses the point.

[gigag04]

It has been ruled over and over that possession of legal objects that have sometimes been used by criminals to commit crimes is NOT reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed or that the possessor intends to commit a crime.

Where has this been ruled and under what context?

People get arrested with porcelain spark plug chips in their wallets frequently under this statute...

Code: Select all

Sec. 16.01.  UNLAWFUL USE OF CRIMINAL INSTRUMENT OR MECHANICAL SECURITY DEVICE.  (a)   A person commits an offense if:
(1)  the person possesses a criminal instrument or mechanical security device with the intent to use the instrument or device in the commission of an offense; or
(2)  with knowledge of its character and with the intent to use a criminal instrument or mechanical security device or aid or permit another to use the instrument or device in the commission of an offense, the person manufactures, adapts, sells, installs, or sets up the instrument or device.
(b)  For the purpose of this section:
(1)  "Criminal instrument" means anything, the possession, manufacture, or sale of which is not otherwise an offense, that is specially designed, made, or adapted for use in the commission of an offense.
(2)  "Mechanical security device" means a device designed or manufactured for use by a locksmith to perform services for a customer who seeks entry to a structure, motor vehicle, or other property.
(c)  An offense under Subsection (a)(1) is one category lower than the offense intended. An offense under Subsection (a)(2) is a state jail felony.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.  Amended by Acts 1975, 64th Leg., p. 913, ch. 342, Sec. 7, eff. Sept. 1, 1975;  Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.
Amended by: 
Acts 2011, 82nd Leg., R.S., Ch. 814, Sec. 1, eff. September 1, 2011.

Or a new, unused rose in a glass/crack pipe...not illegal but if I can prove you wanted to use it to smoke crack....you go to jail...

Code: Select all

§ 481.125. OFFENSE:  POSSESSION OR DELIVERY OF DRUG 
PARAPHERNALIA.  (a) A person commits an offense if the person 
knowingly or intentionally uses or possesses with intent to use 
drug paraphernalia to plant, propagate, cultivate, grow, harvest, 
manufacture, compound, convert, produce, process, prepare, test, 
analyze, pack, repack, store, contain, or conceal a controlled 
substance in violation of this chapter or to inject, ingest, 
inhale, or otherwise introduce into the human body a controlled 
substance in violation of this chapter.
	(b)  A person commits an offense if the person knowingly or 
intentionally delivers, possesses with intent to deliver, or 
manufactures with intent to deliver drug paraphernalia knowing that 
the person who receives or who is intended to receive the drug 
paraphernalia intends that it be used to plant, propagate, 
cultivate, grow, harvest, manufacture, compound, convert, produce, 
process, prepare, test, analyze, pack, repack, store, contain, or 
conceal a controlled substance in violation of this chapter or to 
inject, ingest, inhale, or otherwise introduce into the human body 
a controlled substance in violation of this chapter.

[android]

It has been ruled over and over that possession of legal objects that have sometimes been used by criminals to commit crimes is NOT reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed or that the possessor intends to commit a crime.

Where has this been ruled and under what context?

You can start with St. John v. McColley, et al.

Alamogordo PD detained St. John because he was open carrying which they claimed created reasonable suspicion of a crime. Open carry is legal in NM.

On September 8, 2009, Federal District Judge Bruce D. Black, issued an order previously examined here, that concluded as a matter of law that Alamogordo police officiers violated Matthew St. John's constitutional rights under the Fourth Amendment because they seized and disarmed him even though there was not "any reason to believe that a crime was afoot." Judge Black's opinion is consistent with numerous high state and federal appellate court rulings, including the United States Supreme Court, holding that there is no firearms exception to the Fourth Amendment.

http://www.deloc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3048" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If a gun can't be suspicious, then I don't think plastic tubing and gardening supplies can be suspicious either.


You've pulled a few corner cases out of the woodwork, but I meant common legal to own objects and you probably knew that.

[sugar land dave]

"...to serve and protect..." Who?

Respectfully may I say that we don't blanket bash LEOs on this forum, though in this case, I believe a few may have been over-eager.

[sugar land dave]

The stuff in the trash was something but whatever it was was not pot, or the lab would not say it didn't even look like pot.

How was the homeowner stupid? Growing a hydroponic garden? Tell me now because I intend to do that when I get to Texas.

Putting the vegetation grown in said garden, not being pot or anything else illegal, in the trash, not realizing that some deputy had seen his driver's license in a gardening store and would therefore be searching his trash hoping to hit pay dirt?

As silly as it may seem to some, there are dare I say, hundreds, maybe even thousands, of people out there who have never seen pot, never smelled it, and have no more idea of what pot looks or smells like than whale poop. They ought to be able to go about their ordinary lawful business without interference from these crack... uhhh, pots who see a pot farmer under every bed.

I've researched hydroponics, aquaponics, heavy metal sludge, nitrogen sources, potassium, phosphorus, micro-nutrients, and plant growth mediums, all the while developing a new technology for improving plant roots ability to draw nutrients from various types of soil while reducing requirements for fertilizer. I've used it on my citrus trees, my flowers, roses, hibiscus. I did all of this to learn how to stop killing my citrus trees since I was a terrible gardener and needed help, but if you had a different mindset, you could look at my internet search history and think it was for other purposes. When they start confusing my Whole Foods tea leaves for something else, I guess at that point I will have another opinion.

[gigag04]

[quote="android"
You've pulled a few corner cases out of the woodwork, but I meant common legal to own objects and you probably knew that.[/quote]
Nobody was seized on mere possession of an otherwise legal item. Like all cases, it was evaluated on the totality of the circumstances.

[gigag04]

Buying all the vanilla extract bottles (for storing PCP) or Sudafed (meth) also gets you noticed.

This is where an officer's experience, training, and most importantly ability to articulate comes into play when describing these facts as they contribute to PC.

[sugar land dave]

Around here, buying large amounts of sugar puts you into the "suspicious" catagory.


Or buying large amounts of fertilizer, and not owning a farm,....

I hope to cut that need in half for farmers, so that buying large amounts would be even more noticeable. As with our firearms, it is the mind of man and his actions which make the item's use good or bad.

[SewTexas]

Buying all the vanilla extract bottles (for storing PCP) or Sudafed (meth) also gets you noticed.

This is where an officer's experience, training, and most importantly ability to articulate comes into play when describing these facts as they contribute to PC.

it's kinda scary to think that the next time I buy a large quantity of lye (for soap making) I might end up catching the eye of some cop or detective who fails to notice that I also bought scents and oils at the same time.

this is a simple case of detectives failing to completely detect...

[texanjoker]

To be a devils advocate, what if the police were watching a suspected meth shop and checking the license plates of every person going in or out? And then checking garbage of those people to see if there were traces of amphetamines or whatever one tests for? Would we be so critical or would that be considered good police work.

Where can you buy meth legally?

It has been ruled over and over that possession of legal objects that have sometimes been used by criminals to commit crimes is NOT reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed or that the possessor intends to commit a crime.

While it may or may not be reasonable suspicion, when you are working a house to develop PC for a meth lab, you make stops on cars coming and going. These stops are done when you develop independent PC for the stop. Some items you may find that are legal, but good indicators of a person cooking meth would be massive amounts of certain cold meds/or empty boxes, acetone, grinders, scales, empty baggies, jars, ect. For the cars leaving you will find people carrying dope, glass pipes, make lots of arrests for warrants and many times recover a stolen car.

Of course to search the car you would need consent, to arrest them and do a tow of the vehicle for an inventory, observe something in plain site or find they are probation/parole with a 4th waiver to be searched, ect. All of this is done with good PC to build a case with the ultimate goal of ID the people in the house and either execute a search warrant, or when they are on parole/probation to do a search in that manner. This is not meant to be a complete lesson on the 4th amendment, but a short synopsis how business is handled in a legal manner with the goal of taking down a meth house.

For those that have had to endure a meth lab on their street, they know crime goes up as the tweekers need $$$ to pay for the dope. When the lab goes away, crime goes down as the tweekers go to somebody elses 'hood.

[VMI77]

To be a devils advocate, what if the police were watching a suspected meth shop and checking the license plates of every person going in or out? And then checking garbage of those people to see if there were traces of amphetamines or whatever one tests for? Would we be so critical or would that be considered good police work.

Where can you buy meth legally?

It has been ruled over and over that possession of legal objects that have sometimes been used by criminals to commit crimes is NOT reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed or that the possessor intends to commit a crime.

While it may or may not be reasonable suspicion, when you are working a house to develop PC for a meth lab, you make stops on cars coming and going. These stops are done when you develop independent PC for the stop. Some items you may find that are legal, but good indicators of a person cooking meth would be massive amounts of certain cold meds/or empty boxes, acetone, grinders, scales, empty baggies, jars, ect. For the cars leaving you will find people carrying dope, glass pipes, make lots of arrests for warrants and many times recover a stolen car.

Of course to search the car you would need consent, to arrest them and do a tow of the vehicle for an inventory, observe something in plain site or find they are probation/parole with a 4th waiver to be searched, ect. All of this is done with good PC to build a case with the ultimate goal of ID the people in the house and either execute a search warrant, or when they are on parole/probation to do a search in that manner. This is not meant to be a complete lesson on the 4th amendment, but a short synopsis how business is handled in a legal manner with the goal of taking down a meth house.

For those that have had to endure a meth lab on their street, they know crime goes up as the tweekers need $$$ to pay for the dope. When the lab goes away, crime goes down as the tweekers go to somebody elses 'hood.

And therein you have articulated the difference between activity that is suspicious and activity that isn't. As it pertains to the case in question, if dad had bought "massive amounts" of hydroponic equipment, that might be grounds for suspicion. Though, "massive," like beauty, can be in the eye of the beholder. Liberals would certainly think that 10,000 rounds of 22 LR is a "massive" amount. They may well think 200 rounds is "massive" and three guns comprise an arsenal. Another distinction in your example is that the judgement of what is suspicious isn't based on the purchase of one group of objects that are normally sold as a set, but on a disparate group of objects and observations that taken together lead to a reasonable suspicion that something illegal is afoot, which again, was not the case here.

[JALLEN]

While it may or may not be reasonable suspicion, when you are working a house to develop PC for a meth lab, you make stops on cars coming and going. These stops are done when you develop independent PC for the stop. Some items you may find that are legal, but good indicators of a person cooking meth would be massive amounts of certain cold meds/or empty boxes, acetone, grinders, scales, empty baggies, jars, ect. For the cars leaving you will find people carrying dope, glass pipes, make lots of arrests for warrants and many times recover a stolen car.

Except for the cold meds, that sounds like a lot of stuff I used to buy back when I was building an airplane in the garage, boxes of various sizes and kinds to store parts, lots of baggies and jars for small washers, screws, doohickies of various kinds, gallons of acetone, various scales to weigh parts, tools of all sorts, etc.

Someone could have made a real fool of themselves trying to make PC out of that.

[gigag04]

While it may or may not be reasonable suspicion, when you are working a house to develop PC for a meth lab, you make stops on cars coming and going. These stops are done when you develop independent PC for the stop. Some items you may find that are legal, but good indicators of a person cooking meth would be massive amounts of certain cold meds/or empty boxes, acetone, grinders, scales, empty baggies, jars, ect. For the cars leaving you will find people carrying dope, glass pipes, make lots of arrests for warrants and many times recover a stolen car.

Except for the cold meds, that sounds like a lot of stuff I used to buy back when I was building an airplane in the garage, boxes of various sizes and kinds to store parts, lots of baggies and jars for small washers, screws, doohickies of various kinds, gallons of acetone, various scales to weigh parts, tools of all sorts, etc.

Someone could have made a real fool of themselves trying to make PC out of that.

I think you missed the part where these things are not used in and of themselves? You guys are missing the point...