Who gets a gun?

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baldeagle
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Who gets a gun?

#1

Post by baldeagle »

Adam Winkler is at it again. He's proposing truly universal background checks (no exceptions) and coercing FFLs to absorb the cost of the checks.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/com ... 1091.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My response (I'm on his mailing list, so my responses always go to him personally):
Adam, I find this kind of thinking from a law professor to be stunningly naïve.

Let's say you manage to get truly universal background checks passed through Congress. Now imagine the very scenario you describe as the reason they are needed. A criminal wants to obtain a gun through a friend or family member. How are you going to stop that with the universal background checks? All the friend or family member has to do is report the gun as stolen and poof, your chain of custody is gone.

Gee, I was robbed on the way home from the FFL.

Your proposal to make them free is a tax on gun dealers. If you truly want free universal background checks, then the government would have to reimburse the FFL for the transfer. Otherwise you're simply shifting the cost burden from the government to private companies, and I doubt seriously you could get that past the Supreme Court. You are familiar with Prinz I'm sure. Would that principle not apply even more to compelling a private party to bear the cost burden of carrying out the government mandate?

You, along with so many other people in this country, seem to have no concept of the word "infringed". We have tons of gun laws on the books now, few of which are enforced with regularity or consistency. When they are, the penalties are not nearly severe enough. Now you want to burden the law abiding citizen with additional hoops to go through in the vain hope that somehow, some way, this will make the criminals less likely to obtain firearms?

If you were really serious about stopping criminal use of firearms, you'd be demanding mandatory sentences for the use of a gun in a felony.

10 years with no parole for the first offense
20 years with no parole for the second offense
Life without parole for a third offense
No judicial discretion.

My advice? Stop attacking guns. Attack criminals.
The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. James Madison
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baldeagle
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Re: Who gets a gun?

#2

Post by baldeagle »

Winkler's response to my letter:
On 2/15/13 10:20 AM, "Winkler, Adam" <winkler@law.ucla.edu> wrote:
Well, if sophisticated reasoning is simply to insist on harsher penalties (which we keep making harsher to no real effect) and to decry every proposal as an "infringement" of the 2A (completely divorced from any case law supporting such a cry), then I guess I'll go with stunningly naïve!
And my response to that:
The reason harsh penalties have no effect is because we ignore them. When criminals can receive two years for a murder (and out in 13 months), then harsh penalties are nothing more than cover for a system that is being ignored.

Seriously, though, why do you think punishing law abiding citizens will have an effect on gun crime if you think harsh penalties for the actual criminals will not? Isn't this a clear example of twisted reasoning?

For example, let's say that some drivers are completely ignoring stop signs, causing accidents and even fatalities. Would it make sense to insist that every car have a mechanism that could detect a stop sign and stop the car regardless of what the driver wanted or needed? Or does it make sense to have harsh enough penalties for law breakers that the cost of breaking the law is more than they are willing to pay?

The problem is law breakers, not the law abiding. That is the problem that needs to be tackled.
And his response to that:
The analogy to the stop sign is perfect. We impose them on everyone, even responsible people who would be careful when traversing an intersection. Sometimes prophylactic rules work best. Not perfectly, just better.
When a man's mind is made up, you can't change it.

At least he's willing to dialog, even if it's simply to ridicule my positions.
The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. James Madison
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Beiruty
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Re: Who gets a gun?

#3

Post by Beiruty »

He is not naive, he is an idiot.

Ask him with criminal law, why criminals are repeat offenders if the the law is meant to be deterrent? What if you ban firearms and now criminals will have an open buffet and can go on crime spree. Check with South Dallas daily beat. Are you responsible for my own protection? Can I sue the Federal Government for disarming me and allowing the criminals to act with impunity!

What if the the ban is passed and 10,000 went marching in the street with open carrying their long rifle. Will the FBI arrest them and make them felons!

Why I need a black evil rifles, because there are ***** evils people who are drugged up to the moon and who will riot like in LA, and or London and would burn down buildings. Will the FBI/NSA/DHS would shoot them on sight? Will I be protected?
Beiruty,
United we stand, dispersed we falter
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Wodathunkit
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Re: Who gets a gun?

#4

Post by Wodathunkit »

Thanks for sharing! :cheers2:
"Character is doing the right thing, even when nobody is looking" - J.C. watts Jr.
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KC5AV
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Re: Who gets a gun?

#5

Post by KC5AV »

baldeagle wrote:Winkler's response to my letter:

And his response to that:
The analogy to the stop sign is perfect. We impose them on everyone, even responsible people who would be careful when traversing an intersection. Sometimes prophylactic rules work best. Not perfectly, just better.
When a man's mind is made up, you can't change it.

At least he's willing to dialog, even if it's simply to ridicule my positions.
And he did a not very good job of totally evading the question. Keep pressing him.
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baldeagle
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Re: Who gets a gun?

#6

Post by baldeagle »

KC5AV wrote:
baldeagle wrote:Winkler's response to my letter:

And his response to that:
The analogy to the stop sign is perfect. We impose them on everyone, even responsible people who would be careful when traversing an intersection. Sometimes prophylactic rules work best. Not perfectly, just better.
When a man's mind is made up, you can't change it.

At least he's willing to dialog, even if it's simply to ridicule my positions.
And he did a not very good job of totally evading the question. Keep pressing him.
That's his MO. He never directly answers a question.
The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. James Madison
NRA Life Member Texas Firearms Coalition member
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karder
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Re: Who gets a gun?

#7

Post by karder »

Was it Ben Franklin who noted "you can't reason a man out of a position that he did not reason himself into"?

In some 10,000 years of recorded human history, guns have only occupied a tiny percentage of that time. Murder, theft, assault, envy, greed, lust and the other curses of our sin nature have dogged us for the entire course. If guns were to disappear tomorrow and mankind had to revert to swords and bows for defense and war, I am quite certain that crime would statistically change very little. Certainly the victim profile might shift as older and less physically sound individuals would be victimized at a greater rate, much like in the animal kingdom, but overall, crime would still be the same problem that it is today. This negates the liberal argument that guns make society more dangerous and to some extent negates the conservative argument that guns make us safer, except in the case of women and older individuals who would likely be victimized at a higher rate as they would be less capable of winning a physical encounter with a large attacker.

We should consider turning the "war on guns" argument into a "war on women" and throw that back in the progressive's face. A young fit black man who would otherwise conduct a "drive by" on another young black man in a rival gang, might not want the physical fight and might pick an elderly Korean shop keeper to commit his crime against, but the liberal logic that believes removing the gun from his hand will change his heart and turn him into a loving father and contributor to society is a nonsensical as the story of Peter Pan.

The real purpose of guns in American society is to keep the American government answerable to the American people. What Mr. Winkler needs to understand is that for any nation to be free, the people must be armed in equal proportion to the government. As soon as our rifles are taken away, we cease to be free citizens and become wards of the government. As long as that government is led by the socialist messiah Barrack Obama, the liberals will be happy. Will they be happy in 2016 when he is gone and the new guy gets in power? Will they want their rifles when Washington is no longer leading them down the promised path toward their desired future? How happy will the young socialist progressives be when a new president decides that Jews are the problem to our bankrupt, crime ridden nation? Or perhaps it is all the Latinos migrating in that turned things sour, or Irishmen for that matter? Will they try to scrounge the remaining rifles that were hidden and attempt to stop the genocide? I am betting they will close their doors, remain as silent as church mice and hope not to be noticed.

Liberty once lost is lost forever. I am not as educated, sophisticated or respected as Mr. Winkler, but I do cherish my freedom more than he does his.
“While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.” ― Samuel Adams

bdickens
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Re: Who gets a gun?

#8

Post by bdickens »

I don't engage in dialogue with people like Adam Winkler. Instead I discuss Kierkegaard and Nietzsche's influence on contemporary American literary critical theory with brick walls. I find that much more productive.
Byron Dickens
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