End Public Schools

[mojo84]

This is obviously a very emotional subject. We all need to stop and realize there is not a one size fit all answer. We live in the United States of America. There are multiple options available and we are all free to choose which is best for our respective children. I can tell you, we choose to take the public school route with the understanding we would have to be heavily involved in our children's lives and education. It has worked out very well for us. We have several families in our neighborhood that choose to home school. Their kids are wonderful bright young kids that we love and think the world of.

I can tell you each one of the parents have told me and my wife several times how incredible my kids are. They are extremely impressed with how well rounded, intelligent, polite, spiritually sound and upstanding my kids are. My son is in the top ten of his class, second highest GPA on the football team, academic all-district, student council leader, honor society member, sheriff office explorer, non-stop drinker, free of drugs and has stated and led a lunch time Bible study. He's also been asked by the some of the home school parents to help their kids with some of their school work and socializing as some of them feel awkward and out of place when they are not surrounded with other home school kids. All this is in spite of being enrolled in public school.

Bottom line is, there are different options available and people should choose to avail themselves of the one that is best for them and their kids. It doesn't do any good to run down the choice others make regardless whether they choose public, private, charter, distant or home schooling. Kids excel and fail in all of them. Just because what is best for you doesn't mean that option is best for me and my kids. It comes down parental involvement, strong moral values and discipline.

[Keith B]

Well said mojo84.

[CC Italian]

Closing all public schools would be a bad choice imo. Let me explain. Home schooling your child is a very valid option for many parents who have the time, money and education to teach their children. 80% of parents are missing at least one of these three things imo.

First off most parents don't have the time. I am not saying you don't, maybe you do? Most parents both work and many have more then one job nowadays. One top of this many students are in divorced families nowadays and only have one parent or maybe they are being raised by a grandparent or relative. Now if we could all make good money and live off one parent’s pay check then maybe this could work. How many of you fall into this category? I sure don't! Ok let’s say you have the time and the money to have a stay at home mom or dad. Once again remember most don't have this option.

This part is going to hit a nerve but I have met many parents who have junior high-level reading and math skills. My wife and I have both tutored many parents because they couldn't write papers (some couldn't read English) because they wanted to help their children with extra tutoring at home or in my wife's case she teaches math. You would be shocked how many parents can't help their children do junior high level math. Once again I am not saying you can't but some can't. This problem gets even more compounded when they get to the high school level content. Calculus, physics, writing serious papers, grammar, social studies etc. Do you have the education to teach your children all that? Maybe you do but once again you know what I am going to say, most don't.

Notice I didn't go into religion, morals, ethics etc. The core of this has always been and should stay with the family imo! No one can teach a child these better then a parent! Undisputed!

Don't get me wrong public education is broken for many school districts but getting rid of public education completely isn't going to work for most parents. We all know this but it is not just the education system that is having a problem. We have already discussed many factors that affect the public education system. Public education while not perfect by any means has been effective in some countries. Why is that? Could it have something to do with our society as a whole or in part?

Ok ready for my licks! I expect nothing less on a topic as debated as public education!

[n5wd]

<SNIP>

The problem is that your child is go to university, to a job, or into the military (unless you're going to put em to work on the family farm) in a world where there are drug dealers, child predators, rapists, armed robbers, murderers, kidnappers, random bullies and where there are folks in authority of all kinds that may be in disagreement with what you think is a constitutional principle. Are you going to put your child in a bubble and withdraw them from any chance of making their own way in this world?

<SNIP>

A bubble? I call nonsense. You can almost always tell a home educated child by their manners, respect and the ability to communicate well with adults and kids of all ages. They have more opportunities to socialize across a larger spectrum of ages and personalities than any child in an institutionalized school could hope for. Segregating children according to age does nothing to promote social interaction, at least not in a real world way, but it does promote peer dependency. Home schooled children are taught how to learn and how to reason, not just indoctrinated.

Colleges in most states accept applicants based on entrance exams, not where their diploma is from. Some Universities exist primarily for the home school community. The Marines were on the forefront of accepting home school diplomas, but there is some subjectivity still applied there. Some colleges promote scholarships for home schooled students. Stanford University enrolled home schooled students at a ratio of two to one in 2002-2003 (IIRC). A good many of them are entrepreneurs by the time they reach college age and are very successful without any further "education".

Don't let your profession blind you to the reality and cause you to repeat the propaganda of the school system's statism.

And, in return, don't assume that your beliefs about the whole world are the only ones that are valid. FWIW, I heartily encourage parents who wish to, and who can do, to home school. But, not all home schoolers are angels, and not all public schools are devils. There are all kinds of kids out there, and not all home school programs are equal, either.

BTW, according to the recruiters who come and visit with us, none of the services are presently accepting home school diplomas as equivalent to a public high school diploma. They do accept charter school diplomas as Tier 1, but home school is considered Tier 2, and not acceptable. That's for an enlistment. Home schoolers can get an appointment to one of the service academies, but cuurently, can not enlist.

[SF18C]

I'm so glad we home school our teen age kid!

[SewTexas]

time: prioritize, we homeschooled our kids when I was working full-time and my husband was working 2 jobs
money: prioritize, during the above time we were broke and ended up in bankruptcy....this was Clinton's bad economy that Bush inherited (shhh, no one ever talks about that)
education: OK, we both have college degrees and my husband is great in math, but my kids have shown interest in things over the years we know nothing about....you find ways of helping them. my son is an artist, I can't draw a straight line...I can sew one, but draw????? we found out about a group that meets at the local art museum, he's learned alot there, and it's free! sometimes you can have the education and it doesn't matter one whit. these days it's all online anyway. you can find the help, it's out there. that's why there are homeschool groups, it's very easy to homeschool, especially in Texas.

[SewTexas]

<SNIP>

The problem is that your child is go to university, to a job, or into the military (unless you're going to put em to work on the family farm) in a world where there are drug dealers, child predators, rapists, armed robbers, murderers, kidnappers, random bullies and where there are folks in authority of all kinds that may be in disagreement with what you think is a constitutional principle. Are you going to put your child in a bubble and withdraw them from any chance of making their own way in this world?

<SNIP>

A bubble? I call nonsense. You can almost always tell a home educated child by their manners, respect and the ability to communicate well with adults and kids of all ages. They have more opportunities to socialize across a larger spectrum of ages and personalities than any child in an institutionalized school could hope for. Segregating children according to age does nothing to promote social interaction, at least not in a real world way, but it does promote peer dependency. Home schooled children are taught how to learn and how to reason, not just indoctrinated.

Colleges in most states accept applicants based on entrance exams, not where their diploma is from. Some Universities exist primarily for the home school community. The Marines were on the forefront of accepting home school diplomas, but there is some subjectivity still applied there. Some colleges promote scholarships for home schooled students. Stanford University enrolled home schooled students at a ratio of two to one in 2002-2003 (IIRC). A good many of them are entrepreneurs by the time they reach college age and are very successful without any further "education".

Don't let your profession blind you to the reality and cause you to repeat the propaganda of the school system's statism.

And, in return, don't assume that your beliefs about the whole world are the only ones that are valid. FWIW, I heartily encourage parents who wish to, and who can do, to home school. But, not all home schoolers are angels, and not all public schools are devils. There are all kinds of kids out there, and not all home school programs are equal, either.

BTW, according to the recruiters who come and visit with us, none of the services are presently accepting home school diplomas as equivalent to a public high school diploma. They do accept charter school diplomas as Tier 1, but home school is considered Tier 2, and not acceptable. That's for an enlistment. Home schoolers can get an appointment to one of the service academies, but cuurently, can not enlist.

when and where did you hear that homeschoolers can not enlist? because they were threatened with court action back in the 90's, maybe early 2000's and changed that. I know quite a few homeschoolers who are in the military.

My son could get an appointment to one of the academies easily, but not with our Pres, not happening.

[chasfm11]

This is obviously a very emotional subject. We all need to stop and realize there is not a one size fit all answer. We live in the United States of America. There are multiple options available and we are all free to choose which is best for our respective children. I can tell you, we choose to take the public school route with the understanding we would have to be heavily involved in our children's lives and education. It has worked out very well for us. We have several families in our neighborhood that choose to home school. Their kids are wonderful bright young kids that we love and think the world of.

I can tell you each one of the parents have told me and my wife several times how incredible my kids are. They are extremely impressed with how well rounded, intelligent, polite, spiritually sound and upstanding my kids are. My son is in the top ten of his class, second highest GPA on the football team, academic all-district, student council leader, honor society member, sheriff office explorer, non-stop drinker, free of drugs and has stated and led a lunch time Bible study. He's also been asked by the some of the home school parents to help their kids with some of their school work and socializing as some of them feel awkward and out of place when they are not surrounded with other home school kids. All this is in spite of being enrolled in public school.

Bottom line is, there are different options available and people should choose to avail themselves of the one that is best for them and their kids. It doesn't do any good to run down the choice others make regardless whether they choose public, private, charter, distant or home schooling. Kids excel and fail in all of them. Just because what is best for you doesn't mean that option is best for me and my kids. It comes down parental involvement, strong moral values and discipline.

I'm happy for your and your family that your particular public school situation is working for you. All parents and students should be so fortunate. We were not. My wife and I have education degrees, teaching certificates and taught in the public schools. As a teacher, my tendency was to take the teacher's point of view if our kids had problems. I'm not willing to share the specifics of several simply awful experiences that we had. I can tell you for many parents, involvement, strong moral values and discipline are not enough when it comes to many public schools. As a result of job changes, our kids attended school in Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Texas. The problems are consistent even across State lines.

I honestly believe that the public has completely lost control of public education. For all of the talk about local school boards, too much of what happens in our schools today from the curriculum to school lunches to attendance policy is dictated by unassailable and often faceless, nameless entities. I could write pages about specific stories - the child in NC whose packed lunch was taken away from her by "someone" who determined that it wasn't nutritious enough yet when the school was challenged to identify the person making that ruling, they could not or would not. The girl in Philadelphia was expelled because she had an "L" shaped piece of paper that was supposed to look like a gun. Unchallenged bullying is rampant in some schools and some districts with only a fraction of the horrendous incidents making the news. My experience is that these are more than norm than isolated incidents. You can chalk most of it up to "zero tolerance" administrations who refuse to accept responsibility for anything.

There are many parallels between the public schools and gun control. The same tired play book of "blame the parents" is used to excuse the nationwide decay of educational achievement when there are at least 10 other factors involved. None of those other factors are addressed. The solution is always more money yet when an innovative educator reforms the DC school system without addition funding, she is sent packing. The teachers' union buttonholed the politicians to get her out.

As a tax payer, I demand transparency. Do whatever you wish but when you are using funds that you take from me in taxes, I expect to be allowed to see what is going on. That is why I'm so upset about CSCOPE. Even the State Board of Education does not have access to the details in that program. That is unacceptable.

Again, I’m glad for those who find good experiences in public schools. For the moment, our granddaughter is one of those elementary schools. Every child should have a similar experience. It is just not happening. Given the current governmental arrangements with the public schools, I cannot imagine how it ever will.

Edit: To correct typos and extra words.

[mamabearCali]

Closing all public schools would be a bad choice imo. Let me explain. Home schooling your child is a very valid option for many parents who have the time, money and education to teach their children. 80% of parents are missing at least one of these three things imo.

First off most parents don't have the time. I am not saying you don't, maybe you do? Most parents both work and many have more then one job nowadays. One top of this many students are in divorced families nowadays and only have one parent or maybe they are being raised by a grandparent or relative. Now if we could all make good money and live off one parent’s pay check then maybe this could work. How many of you fall into this category? I sure don't! Ok let’s say you have the time and the money to have a stay at home mom or dad. Once again remember most don't have this option.

This part is going to hit a nerve but I have met many parents who have junior high-level reading and math skills. My wife and I have both tutored many parents because they couldn't write papers (some couldn't read English) because they wanted to help their children with extra tutoring at home or in my wife's case she teaches math. You would be shocked how many parents can't help their children do junior high level math. Once again I am not saying you can't but some can't. This problem gets even more compounded when they get to the high school level content. Calculus, physics, writing serious papers, grammar, social studies etc. Do you have the education to teach your children all that? Maybe you do but once again you know what I am going to say, most don't.

Notice I didn't go into religion, morals, ethics etc. The core of this has always been and should stay with the family imo! No one can teach a child these better then a parent! Undisputed!

Don't get me wrong public education is broken for many school districts but getting rid of public education completely isn't going to work for most parents. We all know this but it is not just the education system that is having a problem. We have already discussed many factors that affect the public education system. Public education while not perfect by any means has been effective in some countries. Why is that? Could it have something to do with our society as a whole or in part?

Ok ready for my licks! I expect nothing less on a topic as debated as public education!

One can always find a reason not to do something hard. Homeschooling is hard. Some people will say "I have no time", some people will say "my education is lacking" Some will say "We need two incomes just to live!". There will always be an excuse if you want one. Whether or not you find them valid is up to you.

In our case we made certain choices. I stay at home, we are not rich, I stayed at home when my husband made 38K a year. Could I go out and get a job, sure, but the price on our children's lives would be too high. My education was not the best, I graduated from public school and did get a BA in History. My math is not up to college levels, about at a 10th or 11th grade level. That is ok. There are wonderful resources out there, online classes, other parents, single serve classes at local private schools......if you think you will know everything your kid will want to know, you won't. That is why we have books, online classes, many many opportunities for learning. If it is your hearts desire to home school, choose to be an overcomer.

On morality and religion. Education is never neutral. Right now the public schools are hostile to faith and morality. They will teach your children from a secular viewpoint from 8am to 3pm. The best hours of the day. When you get
home from your job at say 6 pm are you in your exhausted state going to be able to undo the 8 hours of indoctrination they just went through. It is an uphill battle.

I don't have a problem with publicly funded education for those that want it. As a person who has taught public, private, and home school I have a problem with our sausage making system. We throw all the kids in one pot, do not take into consideration any of their unique gifted-ness and grind them up and try to shove them through a system and if they don't fit the mold we label them "ADHD, or ADD, or trouble maker, or lazy, or etc etc etc." This is fundamentally false. Children are unique, children are each different and a different approach will work better with some than others. Why can we not have a charter school system where schools are chosen and paid on results and the pleasure of parents. Where if a school is failing the school fails, not the children and the children go to a better school that works.

This does require involved parents, but if we expect our societies parents to do nothing, a vast majority of them will. Expect more. For heavens sakes, how much effort does it take to say "Julie like science...this school specializes in science lets sign her up for that one." Capitalism works even in this imperfect situation. Socialistic education (which is what we have) creates irritation and frustration as all are brought down to the same level and no one is permitted to be exceptional.

[Kythas]

Then you have this going on right here in Texas.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/6th-graders ... -flag.html

[Abraham]

Generally, home schooling is superior to so-called public education.

Are there exceptions?

Yes

Overall, I'll accept the downside of home schooling because the upside vastly outweighs it.

[SewTexas]

As a tax payer, I demand transparency. Do whatever you wish but when you are using funds that you take from me in taxes, I expect to be allowed to see what is going on. That is why I'm so upset about CSCOPE. Even the State Board of Education does not have access to the details in that program. That is unacceptable.

I expect to see CSCOPE out this leg, or severely changed, we'll see. Dr Donna is on that committee.

[SherwoodForest]

It is an individual choice - limited, or enhanced by each family's particular circumstances and PRIORITIES - but a choice nevertheless.

When parents delegate the RESPONSIBILITY for educating, AND ENSURING THE SAFETY of their children to ANY educational environment - they have the right to expect that assumed RESPONSIBILITY to be diligently PERFORMED with the SAFETY and best interest of their children the FOREMOST PRIORITY of those so entrusted.

Curriculum deficiencies can be compensated for in the home environment.

The responsibility of PROTECTING the children WHILE AT SCHOOL rests squarely, and unequivically UPON THE SHOULDERS of the school authorities.

The falsehood that " Nothing could have prevented the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary " is sadly still being disgracefully asserted during some school board meetings by the very people responsibile for providing effective security to ensure that such a tragedy is never allowed to occur again.

Children can recover from dificiencies in the quality of educational instruction.

They may not recover from ANOTHER such "copy-cat" tragedy that is PERMITTED to happen IN THEIR SCHOOL due to the lack of due diligence by school authorities in seriously, and promptly addressing the IMMEDIATE need for effective armed protection for the children entrusted to their custody, and care.

[VMI77]

I was thinking if we truly want to stop mas shootings at schools we should just close all schools. Distance learning has matured greatly with the rise of the internet. Home schooling has always been an option. Public schools are failing anyway. This could also prevent bullying and maybe even racism. Since a child at home still needs to be watch this could also be a return to the nucleus family.

Any thoughts?

What utopia world have you been living in? Go sit in front of a school on a staff development day and watch how many parents try to drop their kids off for school. That should tell you how involved parents are in their kids education.
You think we have an education problem now? You can't get parents to meet teachers about their kids grades. You think that parent is going to make sure the kid does his work at home?
Within a decade 80% of the underage population would be illiterate.

Some "educators" think that's ok. Several years ago I was reading a book on "education" and it quoted a past Superintendent of Tulsa schools as saying that kids didn't need to be literate anymore, they could get all the information the needed from television.

[fickman]

List me among the poor, sacrificing, single-income homeschool parents. We don't even have cable anymore! CHILD ABUSE!!!

I'll jump in to say I don't even mind paying for the government schools. . . except during the years I have kids of schooling age and I choose not to use their services. During those years, I believe it's only right for me to be exempt from the ISD taxes so that I can use that money for the education of my kids. This isn't a full voucher system - I don't expect any money above and beyond my tax burden.

When my kids graduate, I'd willingly go back to paying for the government school.

One major issue in all government education (primary, secondary, and collegiate) is that the administrative and overhead costs rise disproportionately every time they see an increase in funding.

I definitely agree with the assertion that somebody is going to form your kids' worldview, value set, and morality. If it's not going to be you, please consider carefully to whom you abdicate that role.

Every school is different, and many are shaped by the personalities of the superintendent, principals, and school board. I actually had a lot of openly Christian teachers when I was in school. I even viewed a few of them as mentors or role models. My wife, however, went to the neighboring district and found her schools to be absolutely antagonistic and oppressive to evangelical Christianity.

Removing government education as a whole would be catastrophic without another government-funded institution to take its place. I do believe we all benefit from a baseline of educated citizenry, even though we can debate how low that baseline might have fallen recently.