End Public Schools

[n5wd]

This is a serious question - When families visit the Gulf Coast do reasonable parents allow their young children to venture out into the surf beyond the "safe zone" generally considered to be too shallow for bull shark predation ?

Informed parents will not.

Yet the vast majority of parents continue to patronize a public school system that harbors drug dealers, child predators, rapists, armed robbers, murderers, kidnappers, random bullies, and is staffed by employees represented by educator associations publicly at odds with our constitutional principles.

The problem is that your child is go to university, to a job, or into the military (unless you're going to put em to work on the family farm) in a world where there are drug dealers, child predators, rapists, armed robbers, murderers, kidnappers, random bullies and where there are folks in authority of all kinds that may be in disagreement with what you think is a constitutional principle. Are you going to put your child in a bubble and withdraw them from any chance of making their own way in this world?

Yes, I've had convicted and accused drug dealers in my classrooms - they weren't selling in class, and any kid that wanted to avoid them, could. Yes, I've had kids who's robbed someone, burglars, car thiefs, random bullies and valedictorians and salutatorians, sometimes in the same class. And as far as I know, I've never heard a child in one of my classrooms say that they were ruined in life by the choices someone else made... most kids make their own mistakes and some of them have to pay the piper and try to get their life back on track, and some kids never get caught. Again, the bubble question. Put your child in a bubble or guide them well at home, know that we're watching out for your kids as best possible and tell all the kids if there's something that disturbs them or threatens them to tell us asap. More than that, you'd need to be a higher power to affect.

[n5wd]

yup all for if if I dont have to waste more tax dollars. keller isd is pretty high on the tax rate

At the end of the school year, look at the National Merit Scholarships and college scholarships offered to students of Keller ISD (that info is published each spring) and you'll find that you're probably getting a pretty good deal for the taxes you're paying in Keller ISD. Sure, they've got problems, but who doesn't?

[n5wd]

I have a better idea. Adopt a plan like they have in Finland. Let the tax money for education go with each child. If a community wants to have a public school, it must compete with other schools for the children and the funds that go along with them. The schools in Finland hate it, but the competition has led to Finland having the best educated students on the planet.

Parents get to decide where their children go, and because they are given a choice, they tend to become more involved in the system. Unlike here where unless you have enough money to send your child to private school, you have a very limited choice of schools, if any.

We've already got a loosely similar plan here in the State of Texas: charter schools. Charter Schools are publicly funded (the tax money goes with the kid) and parents have the freedom to transfer a kiddoh into a charter school if they meet the qualifications, if they have room for the kid, if they live in the service area, etc.

The City of Westlake, a DFW suburb east of the Texas Motor Speedway, for example, has established it's own charter school. Fabulous results. The citizens of the city help funding of the school with their city taxes, as well as the funding from the state. There's a waiting line for kids to get into the Westlake school system - they've got a great International Baccalaureate curriculum. Absolutely fantastic results from a quasi-public school.

A lot of charter schools are religious organizational based. Many of them are aimed at specialty populations: kids recovering from drug abuse, kids from at risk (returning dropouts, etc.).

The leg has limited the number of Charter Schools in the state, but there's legislation that would increase that increase that total.

As a public school teacher, I'm probably going against the grain of what folks think public school teachers think, but I'm 100% in favor of charter schools. I think they're great. I'd love to work in a charter school that was dedicated to STEM, for example. The charters sometimes don't hire certified teachers (that's a problem, in my mind, as certification sets a basic set of abilities), and sometimes don't pay well - a lot of charters start and find out that it's a lot more expensive to run a school than they thought, and run into financial problems, or wind up being taken over by the state when they can't pay the bills. As long as you do it right, and don't go into it looking to make a profit (there ARE companies out there trying to do exactly that), then you should be good to go.

So, if you and your community compatriots aren't seeing the type of schools you want, you can (theoretically) charter your own school. It costs a lot, and you have to have the financial backing and someone with the credentials needed to run the school. But the idea is, that you CAN have what you are looking for.

[n5wd]

While I think distance learning and computer based courses have their place, school is not all about curriculum. I learned a lot of things like social interaction, friendship, how to fight, how to love, etc. While there have always been bad things at school, playing sports, being in teh band, school clubs, and other activities are a part of my life that I would not want to have missed.

My "classroom" is a distance learning computer lab - and I can agree with you that distance learning has it's place. And, I agree 100% about the social aspects of school, and don't forget all of the folks you've met who might continue to play a big part in your life.

Sitting a kid behind a computer screen all day to 'learn' would do nothing to help promote how to work with others and potentially turn many into worse social introverts than we already are getting today from kids who do nothing but play video games and play on the Internet.

I've got "super-seniors" in my classes that are doing that exact thing, all day every day, trying to catch up on courses they should have passed the first time through, and I can tell you that, at least in my class, they don't turn into social introverts (they LIVE for the passing periods when they go and meet with their friends) and don't spend a large amount of time playing games or texting. That is, of course, because I and the teachers that work with me in the lab monitor their activities, both electronically and with Management By Walking Around (MBWO). A classroom where the teacher sits behind the desk, reads a paper, and ignores the activities in the classroom is not one you'll find at our school! That's the key - we want them to get done and get graduated - no sense in waiting till this June, get your classes done NOW! And, if I could put you in touch with one of my super seniors, they' tell you that's my daily mantra!

[Dragonfighter]

<SNIP>

The problem is that your child is go to university, to a job, or into the military (unless you're going to put em to work on the family farm) in a world where there are drug dealers, child predators, rapists, armed robbers, murderers, kidnappers, random bullies and where there are folks in authority of all kinds that may be in disagreement with what you think is a constitutional principle. Are you going to put your child in a bubble and withdraw them from any chance of making their own way in this world?

<SNIP>

A bubble? I call nonsense. You can almost always tell a home educated child by their manners, respect and the ability to communicate well with adults and kids of all ages. They have more opportunities to socialize across a larger spectrum of ages and personalities than any child in an institutionalized school could hope for. Segregating children according to age does nothing to promote social interaction, at least not in a real world way, but it does promote peer dependency. Home schooled children are taught how to learn and how to reason, not just indoctrinated.

Colleges in most states accept applicants based on entrance exams, not where their diploma is from. Some Universities exist primarily for the home school community. The Marines were on the forefront of accepting home school diplomas, but there is some subjectivity still applied there. Some colleges promote scholarships for home schooled students. Stanford University enrolled home schooled students at a ratio of two to one in 2002-2003 (IIRC). A good many of them are entrepreneurs by the time they reach college age and are very successful without any further "education".

Don't let your profession blind you to the reality and cause you to repeat the propaganda of the school system's statism.

[Keith B]

Sitting a kid behind a computer screen all day to 'learn' would do nothing to help promote how to work with others and potentially turn many into worse social introverts than we already are getting today from kids who do nothing but play video games and play on the Internet.

I've got "super-seniors" in my classes that are doing that exact thing, all day every day, trying to catch up on courses they should have passed the first time through, and I can tell you that, at least in my class, they don't turn into social introverts (they LIVE for the passing periods when they go and meet with their friends) and don't spend a large amount of time playing games or texting. That is, of course, because I and the teachers that work with me in the lab monitor their activities, both electronically and with Management By Walking Around (MBWO). A classroom where the teacher sits behind the desk, reads a paper, and ignores the activities in the classroom is not one you'll find at our school! That's the key - we want them to get done and get graduated - no sense in waiting till this June, get your classes done NOW! And, if I could put you in touch with one of my super seniors, they' tell you that's my daily mantra!

And the reason they don't turn into introverts is they have the opportunity to get out of that class and see their friends AT SCHOOL. If you take the same student and put them in a home environment where they parent doesn't get involved and get them out for social activities, then they WILL be come introverted. In your case the reason a lot of those students are probably there in the first place is because they spent too much time with their friends instead of studying.

[chasfm11]

And the reason they don't turn into introverts is they have the opportunity to get out of that class and see their friends AT SCHOOL. If you take the same student and put them in a home environment where they parent doesn't get involved and get them out for social activities, then they WILL be come introverted. In your case the reason a lot of those students are probably there in the first place is because they spent too much time with their friends instead of studying.

For those parents who are interested in home schooling, there are lots of resources and support groups.

http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/01/31 ... rs-of.html

Several of the parents who home school in our area get together and take their kids on field trips to museums, etc. so that the kids are not taught in isolation. They also enroll their kids in sports, it Boy/Girl Scouts, etc. were social interaction can take place.

Our granddaughter goes to public school but some of her social activity is driven out of the private dance school that she attends.

A percentage of kids who are home schooled get to that point because the public school environment that they were being subjected to was not acceptable to their parents. Whether they were different and the object of bullying or that they had some difference about the way that they learned that wasn't working in the public school. Let me give you a specific example. Our granddaughter was upset last week when when of her friends, who is dyslexic, was subjected to a 4 hour reading test and given a 52% grade as a result. The girl was devastated and our granddaughter was in tears from seeing the result to her friend. Both children were obviously affected - and to what end? All the test did was exacerbate an already diagnosed problem. There was noone there except our granddaughter to comfort the distraught girl. What kind of an environment subjects a child to a test where it is a foregone conclusion that they will fail and then allows the results of that failure to become public? No amount of social interaction is worth this kind of a price. One size does NOT fit all.



L

[Keith B]

And the reason they don't turn into introverts is they have the opportunity to get out of that class and see their friends AT SCHOOL. If you take the same student and put them in a home environment where they parent doesn't get involved and get them out for social activities, then they WILL be come introverted. In your case the reason a lot of those students are probably there in the first place is because they spent too much time with their friends instead of studying.

For those parents who are interested in home schooling, there are lots of resources and support groups.

http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/01/31 ... rs-of.html

Several of the parents who home school in our area get together and take their kids on field trips to museums, etc. so that the kids are not taught in isolation. They also enroll their kids in sports, it Boy/Girl Scouts, etc. were social interaction can take place.

Our granddaughter goes to public school but some of her social activity is driven out of the private dance school that she attends.

A percentage of kids who are home schooled get to that point because the public school environment that they were being subjected to was not acceptable to their parents. Whether they were different and the object of bullying or that they had some difference about the way that they learned that wasn't working in the public school. Let me give you a specific example. Our granddaughter was upset last week when when of her friends, who is dyslexic, was subjected to a 4 hour reading test and given a 52% grade as a result. The girl was devastated and our granddaughter was in tears from seeing the result to her friend. Both children were obviously affected - and to what end? All the test did was exacerbate an already diagnosed problem. There was noone there except our granddaughter to comfort the distraught girl. What kind of an environment subjects a child to a test where it is a foregone conclusion that they will fail and then allows the results of that failure to become public? No amount of social interaction is worth this kind of a price. One size does NOT fit all.



L

I am not knocking home schooling at all. What I am knocking is the home school parents who do not allow their kids to get involved in extracurricular activities. They exist. We had a neighbor who's kid was starved for outside activities and they were not allowed to participate. Those parents that do make the extra effort usually have well rounded kids. There are similar cases of private, parochial and public school kids who are socially introverted as well. It all boils down to how involved the parents want to be and the opportunities presented to them. I know those that home school in small rural areas do not have the same opportunities for outside sports, clubs, etc. locally that those who live in a metropolitan do. The place where those exist are usually in the public school.

[chasfm11]

I am not knocking home schooling at all. What I am knocking is the home school parents who do not allow their kids to get involved in extracurricular activities. They exist. We had a neighbor who's kid was starved for outside activities and they were not allowed to participate. Those parents that do make the extra effort usually have well rounded kids. There are similar cases of private, parochial and public school kids who are socially introverted as well. It all boils down to how involved the parents want to be and the opportunities presented to them. I know those that home school in small rural areas do not have the same opportunities for outside sports, clubs, etc. locally that those who live in a metropolitan do. The place where those exist are usually in the public school.

Like any approach, there are those that the rest of us could judge to be incorrect. There are kids who are starved for social connection just as there are a few who succeed through the inner city school process. We had neighbors who home schooled their daughter through high school and when the girl went to college, she went wild. It was somewhat of a joke while I was teaching that the girls who were the most openly wanton in high school had been the products of a very tight and segregated by the sexes parochial school system.

I don't think that there is a perfect educational solution. This thread started by suggesting that parents should have options, which I whole-heartedly support. Charter schools, home schools and private schools should be in the mix. I'm adamantly opposed to the current direction of the public schools. While I recognize that there are pockets of good teaching that are occurring, the overall focus of the curriculum is wrong and, in more cases than not, I believe it is being poorly executed. Public schools are failing mostly because there is no accountability for either the material being taught or for the quality of teachers.

I have to admit that the commercial company from which I retired did a really lousy job of getting rid of bad performing employees but some of the same reasons as for the schools. Goals and objectives need to be clear and employee/teacher contribution toward meeting them needs to be assessed. Those goals and objectives in my business were no less murky than they are in the school environment.

What works is smaller, less bureaucratic organizations. Big banks fail, big auto companies fail and big school environments fail. Economy of scale benefits are greatly outweighed by bureaucratic ineptness. With smaller schools and choices, education in the US can stop falling behind the advances of the rest of the world.

http://rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-educat ... fographic/

Simply throwing money at the problem is obviously not getting it solved. We've given over the schools to the social aspect and I believe that is wrong.

[mojo84]

I am not knocking home schooling at all. What I am knocking is the home school parents who do not allow their kids to get involved in extracurricular activities. They exist. We had a neighbor who's kid was starved for outside activities and they were not allowed to participate. Those parents that do make the extra effort usually have well rounded kids. There are similar cases of private, parochial and public school kids who are socially introverted as well. It all boils down to how involved the parents want to be and the opportunities presented to them. I know those that home school in small rural areas do not have the same opportunities for outside sports, clubs, etc. locally that those who live in a metropolitan do. The place where those exist are usually in the public school.

Like any approach, there are those that the rest of us could judge to be incorrect. There are kids who are starved for social connection just as there are a few who succeed through the inner city school process. We had neighbors who home schooled their daughter through high school and when the girl went to college, she went wild. It was somewhat of a joke while I was teaching that the girls who were the most openly wanton in high school had been the products of a very tight and segregated by the sexes parochial school system.

I don't think that there is a perfect educational solution. This thread started by suggesting that parents should have options, which I whole-heartedly support. Charter schools, home schools and private schools should be in the mix. I'm adamantly opposed to the current direction of the public schools. While I recognize that there are pockets of good teaching that are occurring, the overall focus of the curriculum is wrong and, in more cases than not, I believe it is being poorly executed. Public schools are failing mostly because there is no accountability for either the material being taught or for the quality of teachers.

I have to admit that the commercial company from which I retired did a really lousy job of getting rid of bad performing employees but some of the same reasons as for the schools. Goals and objectives need to be clear and employee/teacher contribution toward meeting them needs to be assessed. Those goals and objectives in my business were no less murky than they are in the school environment.

What works is smaller, less bureaucratic organizations. Big banks fail, big auto companies fail and big school environments fail. Economy of scale benefits are greatly outweighed by bureaucratic ineptness. With smaller schools and choices, education in the US can stop falling behind the advances of the rest of the world.

http://rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-educat ... fographic/

Simply throwing money at the problem is obviously not getting it solved. We've given over the schools to the social aspect and I believe that is wrong.

This thread did not start by suggesting people should have options. Go read the first post and title of the thread.

[chasfm11]

This thread did not start by suggesting people should have options. Go read the first post and title of the thread.

Sorry if that is a misrepresentation. I view distance learning as an option. Home schooling is specifically mentioned as an option. I viewed the discussion as centering around options besides public schools. What did I get wrong?

[mojo84]

The thread started about ending public schools. It did not start by discussing adding or suggesting alternatives options. It stated that the option of public school should be removed from those of us for whom it is working quite well.

[Andrew]

For my Bride and I the choice to home school our 4 children, 32 years ago, was fraught with worry for them and the fear that we could wind up in jail and/or lose our children. We were both college educated, she post-grad, and had the financial resources to explore the various curricula, methods and outcomes that were available at that time. We investigated socialization issues and the societal integration history of home schooled children. We threw fireballs at each other in regards our own educational careers and opportunities. We were taken to task by our parents, sibs, and friends for even contemplating the idea of home schooling. We did however, in the words of the great philosopher Chief Dan George "endeavour to persevere".
Why did we make that choice? We made it because of own turbulent upbringing(her parents divorced when she was young, I'm an AF brat with a mostly absent father), our desire to provide the best education possible for our children(opening as many doors as possible to their future), our concern for their safety(metal detectors in schools just becoming the rage)and the influence that people without our beliefs and mores would have over them.
We were investigated by the state and the school district, hired a curriculum guide(substitute teacher who was also an "observer")who came to our home once a week, endured the expense of annual achievement testing mandated by the state(not 3rd, 8th and 11th year like the public schools), bore the epithets flung at us personally and at home schoolers in general(religious wackos, molesters, paranoids, etc), bore all the expense of their education(while paying some truly outrageous property taxes to support public schools, yes I know childless folks and those whose children have left school behind continue to pay taxes also, mores the pity)and the list goes on. I can't imagine a parent would undertake the task of home schooling their children without that choice weighing heavily on their shoulders.
The results though were all that mattered in the end, all 4 have completed, my baby girl finishing up at UT this spring, highly successful college careers(none went crazy/wild at university as was posted earlier). None have ever been arrested, bore or begot a child out of wedlock, used illegal drugs, been bullied, beaten, raped, shot or stabbed. They are well socialized(2 are married, 1 has started a family), active in their communities and churches, respected in their places of employment and first and foremost, capable of critical thinking/reasoning and able to make choices that benefit themselves as well as others.
Intangibles from the experience, seeing understanding suffuse the face of a 4 year old as she begins to really read(Berenstain Bears!), the wonder in their eyes as we complete our first science experiment(reducing a compound, sugar, to it's constituent elements), the pride of having your child recognized for achievement in the local paper(achieved a 28 on the ACT at 12 years old,30 on the science portion, kid is scary smart), watching them confidently make a life of their own in a society that prefers to "care" for it's members.
While my Pop(hugely against our choice) passed away before we finished up, he smiled when our oldest was accepted to UVa. and said "I guess leaving a puppy with a trainer who was trying to train 15-20 other puppies at the same time doesn't make alot of sense." Didn't Then, Doesn't Now.

[mamabearCali]

The problem is that your child is go to university, to a job, or into the military (unless you're going to put em to work on the family farm) in a world where there are drug dealers, child predators, rapists, armed robbers, murderers, kidnappers, random bullies and where there are folks in authority of all kinds that may be in disagreement with what you think is a constitutional principle. Are you going to put your child in a bubble and withdraw them from any chance of making their own way in this world?

Yes, I've had convicted and accused drug dealers in my classrooms - they weren't selling in class, and any kid that wanted to avoid them, could. Yes, I've had kids who's robbed someone, burglars, car thiefs, random bullies and valedictorians and salutatorians, sometimes in the same class. And as far as I know, I've never heard a child in one of my classrooms say that they were ruined in life by the choices someone else made... most kids make their own mistakes and some of them have to pay the piper and try to get their life back on track, and some kids never get caught. Again, the bubble question. Put your child in a bubble or guide them well at home, know that we're watching out for your kids as best possible and tell all the kids if there's something that disturbs them or threatens them to tell us asap. More than that, you'd need to be a higher power to affect.

I went to public school. It was a middle class school with all sorts of people there good and bad. I can say with finality that in the fourteen years since I left school I have never ever had to deal the dredges of society like I did then. The drug dealers did not go to college. The Unmotivated did not work in positions of responsibility. Lie down with the dogs and you get fleas. By requiring that our children associate with the degrees of society you put them at risk. I do not require that my my children walk in the way of sinners and seat in the seats with scoffers. I require them to be educated, kind, and polite. I can much more easily accomplish this by teaching them at home. That is not a bubble that is real life. In real life you know where the bad people are and you don't go there.

[wdeaver]

I was thinking if we truly want to stop mas shootings at schools we should just close all schools. Distance learning has matured greatly with the rise of the internet. Home schooling has always been an option. Public schools are failing anyway. This could also prevent bullying and maybe even racism. Since a child at home still needs to be watch this could also be a return to the nucleus family.

Any thoughts?

I don't think we're returning to the traditional, once-taken-for-granted family of husband/wife/kids unless we embrace a God-centered worldview. Simply removing schools does not put in place the families that are currently missing, or the worldview that would put children on firm moral footing. My wife and I have four homeschooled kids (the oldest is 20) who have never spent a day in public school. They are socially adept and, dare I say, well-rounded. Most important, they are all Christians. We chose not to put them where they would be taught they were cousins to the orangutan.