Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

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sjfcontrol
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#31

Post by sjfcontrol »

Wienerdogtroy wrote:We don't know how the fight started. If the shooter started the fight and the shootie was believing HIS life was in jeopardy then this analysis is not correct. The shooter goes to jail for a long long time.
Fraid not. Even if Zimmerman started the confrontation (and there is no evidence that he did), Martin's response must be reasonable. Unless Zimmerman was threatening Martin with illegal deadly force, he had no justification to use deadly force back. If I grab you by the shoulder (assault), you may be justified in punching me. You would not be justified in shooting me.

And, the current story (again) is that Zimmerman was returning to his car when Martin approached from the rear, and after a couple of words, started punching, then bashing zimmermans head on the sidewalk.
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Wienerdogtroy
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#32

Post by Wienerdogtroy »

sjfcontrol wrote:
Wienerdogtroy wrote:We don't know how the fight started. If the shooter started the fight and the shootie was believing HIS life was in jeopardy then this analysis is not correct. The shooter goes to jail for a long long time.
Fraid not. Even if Zimmerman started the confrontation (and there is no evidence that he did), Martin's response must be reasonable. Unless Zimmerman was threatening Martin with illegal deadly force, he had no justification to use deadly force back. If I grab you by the shoulder (assault), you may be justified in punching me. You would not be justified in shooting me.

And, the current story (again) is that Zimmerman was returning to his car when Martin approached from the rear, and after a couple of words, started punching, then bashing zimmermans head on the sidewalk.
No thats the allegation of the current defendant. Actual facts are highly in doubt.
Again it goes back to reasonable belief. We don't know what happened. The shooter could have threatened the shootie. The shooter could have attacked the shootie and the shootie was defending himself. Again if you attack someone and start to lose that attack you don't have the legal right to then cap them. Thats settled law. The initial fact set of the thread is flawed as its designed to to generate the desired answer. However the real fact set is much more incomplete.

Same fact set except the shootie is a woman and the shooter is an intended rapist. She defends herself and he caps her. Thats not self defense thats murder in the furtherance of a felony. Its needle time.
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#33

Post by sjfcontrol »

Wienerdogtroy wrote:
sjfcontrol wrote:
Wienerdogtroy wrote:We don't know how the fight started. If the shooter started the fight and the shootie was believing HIS life was in jeopardy then this analysis is not correct. The shooter goes to jail for a long long time.
Fraid not. Even if Zimmerman started the confrontation (and there is no evidence that he did), Martin's response must be reasonable. Unless Zimmerman was threatening Martin with illegal deadly force, he had no justification to use deadly force back. If I grab you by the shoulder (assault), you may be justified in punching me. You would not be justified in shooting me.

And, the current story (again) is that Zimmerman was returning to his car when Martin approached from the rear, and after a couple of words, started punching, then bashing zimmermans head on the sidewalk.
No thats the allegation of the current defendant. Actual facts are highly in doubt.
Again it goes back to reasonable belief. We don't know what happened. The shooter could have threatened the shootie. The shooter could have attacked the shootie and the shootie was defending himself. Again if you attack someone and start to lose that attack you don't have the legal right to then cap them. Thats settled law. The initial fact set of the thread is flawed as its designed to to generate the desired answer. However the real fact set is much more incomplete.

Same fact set except the shootie is a woman and the shooter is an intended rapist. She defends herself and he caps her. Thats not self defense thats murder in the furtherance of a felony. Its needle time.
Have it your way then. I believe that explanation fits with what we currently know of the physical evidence, and the witness statements that have been released. That's the best we can do on this forum. However I understand that many people are out to lynch the shooter (his name is 'Zimmerman'). You're entitled to your opinions, too.

I've already said that I'm willing to modify the analysis should further information come to light.
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speedsix
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#34

Post by speedsix »

...once the facts are known...translating it into a Texas-law-covered situation will be a great training excercise...there's a lot in this case to be considered...
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#35

Post by A-R »

Wienerdogtroy wrote: No thats the allegation of the current defendant. Actual facts are highly in doubt.
There is no "current defendant" - one man is dead, the other man is not charged with any crime. Thus, no defendant. Labeling Zimmerman a "defandant" shows a bias unto itself.
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#36

Post by Dragonfighter »

speedsix wrote:...so have I, but I have seen medics put a bandage on head wounds to keep them clean, and something on a broken nose to keep it still...plenty of times...one of the videos on the news zoomed in when the back of his head was turned to the camera...no visible damage...just shine...

...with the "facts" changing and contradicting each other...before you can do an accurate analysis, you have to either find out what the facts are...or choose the set you want to accept...or the analysis won't be worth anything...too many controversial sides to the story at this point...
Having treated many, many similar injuries in the field, there is nothing (including the video) that is inconsistent with the Zimmerman/PD version of the injuries. Small lacerations to the scalp will bleed profusely initially but will abate with direct pressure after a few moments. There are many incidents in my memory where once we stemmed the bleeding, we used H2O2 to clean the scalp and the area without applying any dressings. Likewise I have treated several broken noses, often in concert with the aforementioned injuries. Bleeding is often minimal or absent as a "broken nose" is a separation of the septal cartilage from the nasal or ethmoid bone (the latter more likely to bleed). I have seen many where there was no bruising and only mild swelling. Infact my own daughter has a deviated septum from a broken nose and had no bleeding and only mild bruising at the time of the injury.

So there are plenty of times where a head dressing was neither indicated nor desired and I have never moved to stabilize a broken nose. Eight hours later with a clean up and ice packs, I can see why the detective in the station could easily overlook the injuries and how none would be apparent on a video of less than optimal resolution. Not germane to the topic at hand, but since it was brought up...
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#37

Post by speedsix »

...anything that helps the truth of what happened to be nailed down is germaine to an accurate analysis...if the facts aren't right...neither can be the analysis...
...medicine sure has changed since I was on the streets...an aluminum brace/shield and enough white tape to stop traffic was for noses and wounds were bandaged...I bow to your experience, doubtless from more current times than mine...
...I haven't heard of a detective overlooking his injuries...but there are so many "camps", I guess I just haven't run across it yet...if there were injuries, there will be plenty of witnesses and physical evidence to support them...we've heard for days about all the blood...
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#38

Post by Beiruty »

I am pretty sure, crime scene investigator would have taken photos of the injuries, if not, at the trial, LEOs or Meds who treated Mr. Zimmerman would testify about his injuries.

I have a feeling, that this case is going to trial where Mr. Zimmerman would be found not guilty.
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#39

Post by Dragonfighter »

speedsix wrote:...anything that helps the truth of what happened to be nailed down is germaine to an accurate analysis...if the facts aren't right...neither can be the analysis...
...medicine sure has changed since I was on the streets...an aluminum brace/shield and enough white tape to stop traffic was for noses and wounds were bandaged...I bow to your experience, doubtless from more current times than mine...
...I haven't heard of a detective overlooking his injuries...but there are so many "camps", I guess I just haven't run across it yet...if there were injuries, there will be plenty of witnesses and physical evidence to support them...we've heard for days about all the blood...
RE: Current (a few years since I've ridden the box) EMS Procedures

Somewhere in the early ninties, stabilization of broken noses became contra-indicated, as did packing, etc. Of course that applies to the field and not a controlled environment such as an ER or ENT's office. Cold packs, which would do a great deal towards abating swelling and bruising was about the extent of what we would do and even that was applied by the patient.

We dressed all sorts of wounds, including head wounds. I was speaking specifically to the small "dings" one could expect from bouncing their head of the concrete. I'll use one case I remember specifically as an example.

A man decided to hit on his wife and she took him down and bounced his head off of the sidewalk three or four good whacks ( a little irony if you like that sort of thing). He had several small lacerations on the back of his scalp (like 1/8" or so) and bled like a stuck pig initially. We had the patient hold a gauze bandage over the wounds and apply pressure while we finished the assessment. By the time we got back to the head, the bleeding had stopped although a pretty good mat had formed in his short hair. We hit it with H2O2 and cleared away the coagulated blood, cleaned him up leaving what amounted to several little scabbed over cuts. At that point, maybe 20 minutes in, a dressing was not indicated and someone not specifically looking for the injuries could well have missed them.

So speculating a similar circumstance with Zimmerman; one officer's statement that he did not see the wounds and the lack of such visual indicators 8 hours later on an admittedly fuzzy video would be perfectly consistent.

As we watch this unfold, we need to remember that a laceration is a laceration regardless of severity, knuckles don't always show evidence of striking another (even multiple times) especially if the blood flow (that would have produced the inflammation) was interrupted by heart stoppage. Head wounds and broken nose don't always get dressed even if EMS is involved. If Zimmerman's attorney and police that responded are saying there was injury, I would bet they have evidence of such because they would have to know it would be tested.
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#40

Post by speedsix »

...I was already old by the 90s... :grumble
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#41

Post by jmra »

Beiruty wrote:I am pretty sure, crime scene investigator would have taken photos of the injuries, if not, at the trial, LEOs or Meds who treated Mr. Zimmerman would testify about his injuries.

I have a feeling, that this case is going to trial where Mr. Zimmerman would be found not guilty.
Normally I would agree, but I believe you will see witnesses start to change their story. I believe they will be pressured by the left and will be threatened by terrorist groups like the Black Panthers. Some may simply refuse to testify or just fall off the face of the earth. The power behind this has gone too far to let something like the truth stand in the way.
If photos of Zimmermans face and head taken at the scene prove that he was lying about his injuries and other physical evidence refutes his claim, I say string him up by his toe nails. Anything short of that and I'm screaming railroad.
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#42

Post by MeMelYup »

You can all say what you want. I have a problem. When and if this goes to court, how do you get an impartial jury as the the news media has already fried the one person and promoted the other to angelic status in the press. Getting an unbiased jury is going to be impossible. They with others have created racial tension to extreme, which appears to be their intent. Sarcastic? Yes.

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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#43

Post by speedsix »

...no, not sarcastic...just honest opinion...and I think you're right...this is like a Slinky that's been through the washing machine...it'll never be right...
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#44

Post by hi-power »

speedsix wrote:...anything that helps the truth of what happened to be nailed down is germaine to an accurate analysis...if the facts aren't right...neither can be the analysis...
...medicine sure has changed since I was on the streets...an aluminum brace/shield and enough white tape to stop traffic was for noses and wounds were bandaged...I bow to your experience, doubtless from more current times than mine...
...I haven't heard of a detective overlooking his injuries...but there are so many "camps", I guess I just haven't run across it yet...if there were injuries, there will be plenty of witnesses and physical evidence to support them...we've heard for days about all the blood...
Injuries were reported in the police report so that's on paper. How bad they were? No idea.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Secti ... Report.pdf
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Re: Zimmerman/Martin Shooting in Texas Analysis

#45

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

I do have a question... so if I am attacked and I turn the tables on my attacker, does the law not allow me to continue until the percieved threat is no longer a threat. At this point it has turned into revenge if I continue to attack? Then of coarse the question becomes, when is my attacker no longer a threat to me? My answer may be different than maybe a person of less ability to defend themselves. For me, that level would be incapacitation... how ever I must accomplish this goal. As long as my attacker is able to get up, me giving up the advantage and allowing them up may cost me my life. I have no choice other than to continue until the threat is rendered harmless.

One thing I know from this case... make sure the other person is dead so you only have one story to worry about.
Last edited by 03Lightningrocks on Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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