Stand Your Ground in Danger

[ScooterSissy]

Here is the guy some of you folks think is so innocent.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... bled=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He beats women... Attacks cops... Has an explosive temper... And was a wannabe cop who couldn't cut the muster. He was fired as a security guard. Good Lord!

Just to be sure I understand... A few of you think this lunatic was not looking for trouble? He was just innocently walking outside his car and was unexpectedly attacked...LOL. The real question is... Was tray the one exercising his right to stand his ground and lost? One sure way to get away with a lie is to kill the only person who might be able to dispute who started what.

I rest my case. I won't even begin to give serious thought to anything a guy with Zimmermans history has. Woman beating, cop attacking... Wow... Regular model citizen.

Could you please define "done with it"? I'm a bit confused.

[jmra]

Here is the guy some of you folks think is so innocent.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... bled=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He beats women... Attacks cops... Has an explosive temper... And was a wannabe cop who couldn't cut the muster. He was fired as a security guard. Good Lord!

Just to be sure I understand... A few of you think this lunatic was not looking for trouble? He was just innocently walking outside his car and was unexpectedly attacked...LOL. The real question is... Was tray the one exercising his right to stand his ground and lost? One sure way to get away with a lie is to kill the only person who might be able to dispute who started what.

I rest my case. I won't even begin to give serious thought to anything a guy with Zimmermans history has. Woman beating, cop attacking... Wow... Regular model citizen.

A co-worker said... Really? That's what you want to hang your hat on? Do a little more research (yes, I already have and no, find it yourself) and you will discover that the "cop" that he pushed was undercover in a bar and had yet to reveal himself as an officer when the altercation took place. Due to the officers failing to follow proper procedure the charges were reduced. As far as the woman beating comment, according to the police report he and his ex girl friend were in a pushing match. The judge ordered them both to stay away from each other and the incident was later removed from both of their records.

I knew you hated the guy, just didn't know you were that desperate that you would go with the "co-worker said" story. If it weren't so sad it would be funny.

[ScooterSissy]

A co-worker said... Really? That's what you want to hang your hat on? ...

The coworker was talking about things from 2005 too!

But, it's kinda moot, he "rests his case", and is "done with it"

Whatever that means...

[A-R]

... What seems to be getting past you is that I am not arguing about whether Zimmerman or the dead guy were justified in the shooting or the butt kicking. I am saying one thing... Zimmerman caused the whole mess by over stepping his bounds. Same goes for you or any other "hot shot" that wants to play cop.

I am done with it... I realize now you and a few others will never get it.

Why are those "his bounds"? Do you define "the bounds"? If we're going by the law (and that's the bounds that really count), he was totally within his bounds.

BTW, we "get it" (your premise), we just disagree, and you've offered little to convince us.

The guy he decided to stalk was NOT COMMITING ANY CRIME! But hey... He was looking all suspicious munching on those skittles. That seems a good reason to stalk a person innocently walking through the neighborhood at night. That is the part you are not and refuse to get. The dead guy was DOING NOTHING ILLEGAL...when Zimmerman decide to harass him. You folks sound almost racist to me... Is it the hoody or the black skin that makes it OK to stalk this fellow. Which is what lead to the altercation... That NONE of you know anything about how it started. For all any of you know, Zimmerman tried to put the grab on the guy and got ahold of more than he could handle.

This is the biggest red herring of all. Martin "wasn't committing a crime" ... NEITHER WAS ZIMMERMAN!

So you get two guys, both a little nervous about each other. And they meet face-to-face (won't bicker over HOW this happened or who started it, because it doesn't matter). So they meet, and what happens? Trayvon PUNCHES ZIMMERMAN! Then pounds his head REPEATEDLY into the ground (concrete, asphalt, grass?). Someone PUH-LEEZE tell me what JUSTIFICATION Trayvon Martin had to punch Zimmerman and then repeatedly pound his head into the ground?!?!?!!?

This is the crux of the whole case. BOTH men were leery of the other. BOTH men were behaving lawfully ... until Martin behaved unlawfully, attacked Zimmerman physically, and Zimmerman had to defend himself.

I realize my conclusions are based largely on police report which is based largely on Zimmerman's statements. But his statements were verified ENOUGH by eyewitnesses, physical evidence, etc. that the police and more importantly the PROSECUTOR believed it (despite one investigator's misgivings).

As for the accusation that WE - members of this forum - sound racist ... come on, LightningRocks, you're better than that. I applaud you for defending your beliefs in this case but sinking to that level? That's just not you.

[03Lightningrocks]

Lol... I don't hate the guy. I don't even hate you. He is what he is. The dead dude was no angel either. I don't hate him. The only person I can really say I hate is Obama... .

One more time... This situation is what happens when an untrained person attempts to act as an officer of the law. It is one thing if a crime is being witnessed and a citizen tries to help a victim. That is NOT what happened here.

Hate... Wow.... That takes way too much emotional energy. I really don't even hate Obama... I just hate his policies.

Just one more tidbit you might be surprised to read. I am one of the folks who are charged with watching our neighborhood. I am usually up late at night.... I work out of the house most days... So naturally... I am one of the neighborhood babysitters. I take my turn cruising the hood and we are all asked to call the cops and not try to "stop" a crime. I have called the law more than a few times to check out suspicious behavior and have yet made the decision to follow anyone who looked suspicious. Mostly because I don't want to find myself in the same situation as Zimmerman. I will allow the cops to do their job and I will give a description of the suspicious character the best I can without following them around. I have yet to witness a crime in progress so can't really say how I will react if I do. Mostly it depends on the crime I witness. I'm not going through the hassle of shooting a bg because he is stealing somebodies stereo.

Well, wait, I did start following a drunk driver after watching him back into a gas pump and almost run over a guy in a parking lot. He spotted me and started speeding up and jumped on the freeway. I backed off because I was worried the fool might kill someone trying to get away from me. The darned cops never did show up to help that time but chasing a drunk down the freeway was really not a good plan.

I won't go into my self defense credentials, I will just say I can hold my own pretty well but try like the devil to stay out of altercations. I have been involved in two self defense shootings and am a bit concerned at some point an unfriendly grand jury may decide I am looking for trouble myself. My experiences in this area have taught me that it is best to avoid situations where self defense may become necessary and that there are times when one can look back and realize they may have been stepping into something they didn't need to be in. If I make a decision that sets into motion a chain of events... I have only myself to blame for the results.

Fortunately... Our homeowners association and our block watch crew are all volunteers. I don't think I would like a home owners association like some of the nazi types I read folks posting about on this forum. We do have rules but nobody is going to kick down my door and shoot my dog because my car is parked wrong in front of the house. We are a pretty loose group. Maybe we should get more serious about crime watch but we really don't have much more than the usual car stereo thefts and occasional house burglary.

My brothers homeowners will kill a man for having the wrong color flowers in the front yard... .

One last time.... I don't hate either guy... But both of them are of questionable history. Maybe tray on thought Zimmerman was a BG about to get him. Trayvon probably thought he was standing his ground.

[PracticalTactical]

Here is the guy some of you folks think is so innocent.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... bled=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He beats women... Attacks cops... Has an explosive temper... And was a wannabe cop who couldn't cut the muster. He was fired as a security guard. Good Lord!

Just to be sure I understand... A few of you think this lunatic was not looking for trouble? He was just innocently walking outside his car and was unexpectedly attacked...LOL. The real question is... Was tray the one exercising his right to stand his ground and lost? One sure way to get away with a lie is to kill the only person who might be able to dispute who started what.

I rest my case. I won't even begin to give serious thought to anything a guy with Zimmermans history has. Woman beating, cop attacking... Wow... Regular model citizen.

(Another Star Wars reference in the same thread! Winning! LOL)

This isn't about good guys vs. bad guys or smart guys vs. stupid guys. It's bad and badder, dumb and dumber. Just because one guy is bad doesn't automatically make the other guy perfect or good. Pointing out that the marginally better guy wasn't perfect doesn't automatically make the worse guy better or even good.

Plus, these situations are dynamic. Just because one is good at the beginning or bad at the beginning, doesn't mean one is still the same at the end. What you do during a confrontation matters.

Nobody is saying Zimmerman is perfect or angelic. It's clear he made a mistake getting involved that day and he would probably agree with you. But, none of that excuses Martin's overuse of force. The initial punch might have been justified, but when he straddled and started beating Z's face in, it was an unjustified use of force. He lost any self defense claim he might have had and became the aggressor.

Martin is like that pharmacist that shot the robbers and then came back and finished the wounded and unconscious one off with a coup de grace. No dice. Excessive force in defense isn't defense at all.

[jmra]

Lol... I don't hate the guy. I don't even hate you. He is what he is. The dead dude was no angel either. I don't hate him. The only person I can really say I hate is Obama... .

One more time... This situation is what happens when an untrained person attempts to act as an officer of the law. It is one thing if a crime is being witnessed and a citizen tries to help a victim. That is NOT what happened here.

Hate... Wow.... That takes way too much emotional energy. I really don't even hate Obama... I just hate his policies.

Just one more tidbit you might be surprised to read. I am one of the folks who are charged with watching our neighborhood. I am usually up late at night.... I work out of the house most days... So naturally... I am one of the neighborhood babysitters. I take my turn cruising the hood and we are all asked to call the cops and not try to "stop" a crime. I have called the law more than a few times to check out suspicious behavior and have yet made the decision to follow anyone who looked suspicious. Mostly because I don't want to find myself in the same situation as Zimmerman. I will allow the cops to do their job and I will give a description of the suspicious character the best I can without following them around. I have yet to witness a crime in progress so can't really say how I will react if I do. Mostly it depends on the crime I witness. I'm not going through the hassle of shooting a bg because he is stealing somebodies stereo.

Well, wait, I did start following a drunk driver after watching him back into a gas pump and almost run over a guy in a parking lot. He spotted me and started speeding up and jumped on the freeway. I backed off because I was worried the fool might kill someone trying to get away from me. The darned cops never did show up to help that time but chasing a drunk down the freeway was really not a good plan.

I won't go into my self defense credentials, I will just say I can hold my own pretty well but try like the devil to stay out of altercations. I have been involved in two self defense shootings and am a bit concerned at some point an unfriendly grand jury may decide I am looking for trouble myself. My experiences in this area have taught me that it is best to avoid situations where self defense may become necessary and that there are times when one can look back and realize they may have been stepping into something they didn't need to be in. If I make a decision that sets into motion a chain of events... I have only myself to blame for the results.

Fortunately... Our homeowners association and our block watch crew are all volunteers. I don't think I would like a home owners association like some of the nazi types I read folks posting about on this forum. We do have rules but nobody is going to kick down my door and shoot my dog because my car is parked wrong in front of the house. We are a pretty loose group. Maybe we should get more serious about crime watch but we really don't have much more than the usual car stereo thefts and occasional house burglary.

My brothers homeowners will kill a man for having the wrong color flowers in the front yard... .

One last time.... I don't hate either guy... But both of them are of questionable history. Maybe tray on thought Zimmerman was a BG about to get him. Trayvon probably thought he was standing his ground.

Well, without a doubt we agree on Obama's policies.
I still don't really see Zimmerman following Martin while on the phone with 911 as playing cop, but that's just my opinion and we can agree to disagree.
Keep up the good work in the neighborhood and try to forgive my "over aggressive debating tactics".

Edited to add:
Did you just use your de-escalation skills on me? I feel so violated.

[03Lightningrocks]

Lol.... That is funny... May the force be with you.


Funny how we all come together when Obama is mentioned...


Maybe we all agree with certain aspects of this situation with just enough differences to create some frustration. Sorry if I was sounding insulting. I was trying not to. Charles was correct when he said we should all hang loose for the actual investigation. We may all end up with egg on our faces.

[03Lightningrocks]

Here is the guy some of you folks think is so innocent.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... bled=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He beats women... Attacks cops... Has an explosive temper... And was a wannabe cop who couldn't cut the muster. He was fired as a security guard. Good Lord!

Just to be sure I understand... A few of you think this lunatic was not looking for trouble? He was just innocently walking outside his car and was unexpectedly attacked...LOL. The real question is... Was tray the one exercising his right to stand his ground and lost? One sure way to get away with a lie is to kill the only person who might be able to dispute who started what.

I rest my case. I won't even begin to give serious thought to anything a guy with Zimmermans history has. Woman beating, cop attacking... Wow... Regular model citizen.

(Another Star Wars reference in the same thread! Winning! LOL)

This isn't about good guys vs. bad guys or smart guys vs. stupid guys. It's bad and badder, dumb and dumber. Just because one guy is bad doesn't automatically make the other guy perfect or good. Pointing out that the marginally better guy wasn't perfect doesn't automatically make the worse guy better or even good.

Plus, these situations are dynamic. Just because one is good at the beginning or bad at the beginning, doesn't mean one is still the same at the end. What you do during a confrontation matters.

Nobody is saying Zimmerman is perfect or angelic. It's clear he made a mistake getting involved that day and he would probably agree with you. But, none of that excuses Martin's overuse of force. The initial punch might have been justified, but when he straddled and started beating Z's face in, it was an unjustified use of force. He lost any self defense claim he might have had and became the aggressor.

Martin is like that pharmacist that shot the robbers and then came back and finished the wounded and unconscious one off with a coup de grace. No dice. Excessive force in defense isn't defense at all.

I think I might just be able to agree with your summation. Pretty good analogy... Good question to ask ourselves also. When do we stop defending ourselves? When the guy drops... If he gets back up do we continue to pound? These situations, as you posted, are dynamic. What if I am doing the ground and pound and the guy keeps saying, "if I get up I'm going to kill you". Should I believe him or should I figure he is just kidding? I quit pounding a guy one time. He got up and pulled a knife. I ran the oposite direction. He was later, waiting for me in the parking lot where he knew I had parked. He hit he three times in the head with a ball bat. He ran away when I started shooting. I stopped shooting because he ran away and I was under the belief that once the threat was over, I was required to stop. I wife and three year old daughter had to go stay with relatives for a week or so because I was not sure Mr. Tough guy was done. Apparently I scared crap out of him with the shooting part and he was afraid I was going to get him. Funny how stuff can get all out of wack before we see it comming.

[jmra]

Lol.... That is funny... May the force be with you.


Funny how we all come together when Obama is mentioned...


Maybe we all agree with certain aspects of this situation with just enough differences to create some frustration. Sorry if I was sounding insulting. I was trying not to. Charles was correct when he said we should all hang loose for the actual investigation. We may all end up with egg on our faces.

Yep. Only time will tell how all this comes out in the wash.

[VMI77]

Another media lie: http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV?i ... n-911-Call

In an NBC segment featuring George Zimmerman's 911 call on the night of the Trayvon Martin shooting, Zimmerman is heard saying: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.”

The full version, though, unfolds like this:

Zimmerman: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”
911 operator: “Okay. And this guy, is he white black or Hispanic?”
Zimmerman: “He looks black.”

[philip964]

This morning on HLN (CNN headline news) it was all Trayvon Miller. Al Sharpton made a speech, which they showed which was essentially going to war against "stand your ground".

Sounded like it would be his life's work from now on.

[GeekDad]

So Imo, I believe this issue is not a matter of stand your ground. The situation from what was reported seems to show that it was handled wrong all the way around. But what I believe the media is doing is trying to create a whirlwind agenda to disarm America. It's been a big objective of this massive government has been built up by the right and left to disarm America. The right to your life inherently gives you the right to protect your own life. So I ask you to realize that the information from the media is an agenda of the corporations that own our government. Best thing to do is to redirect the conversation and educate the people who are against Stand your ground. Truth be told no one knows exactly what happened, and we should take that into consideration as well.
Fyi.
I am a Ron Paul supporter cause he fights for my liberty, and has not been bought and paid for.

[03Lightningrocks]

So Imo, I believe this issue is not a matter of stand your ground. The situation from what was reported seems to show that it was handled wrong all the way around. But what I believe the media is doing is trying to create a whirlwind agenda to disarm America. It's been a big objective of this massive government has been built up by the right and left to disarm America. The right to your life inherently gives you the right to protect your own life. So I ask you to realize that the information from the media is an agenda of the corporations that own our government. Best thing to do is to redirect the conversation and educate the people who are against Stand your ground. Truth be told no one knows exactly what happened, and we should take that into consideration as well.
Fyi.
I am a Ron Paul supporter cause he fights for my liberty, and has not been bought and paid for.

Well said...

[03Lightningrocks]

Another media lie: http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV?i ... n-911-Call

In an NBC segment featuring George Zimmerman's 911 call on the night of the Trayvon Martin shooting, Zimmerman is heard saying: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.”

The full version, though, unfolds like this:

Zimmerman: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”
911 operator: “Okay. And this guy, is he white black or Hispanic?”
Zimmerman: “He looks black.”

I didn't have the pleasure of watching that one. We are definitely under attack at this point. Some of these goons won't be happy until we have no way of defending ourselves from criminals. I think I'm going to be sick. We have a media that is owned by the elite and the elite are afraid the rest of us are going to dethrown them. Taking away our means of resistance is the first item they need for success. We need to be careful about " friends" of gun owners as well. They are only friends until they can get away with disarming us without political penalty.