Stand Your Ground in Danger

[03Lightningrocks]

I must have missed the part of the story where Zimmerman innocently got out of his car and was attacked. I was more focus on him following the dude around the neighborhood because the guy had a hoody and was black.

Can someone direct me to the report that Zimmerman just happened to be getting out of his car and was attacked?

I don't think anyone here said that he just "innocently got out of his car and was attcked". However, there have been several reports the he claims he lost the guy, and was headed back to his car, when Martin approached him from behind. Is that what you were seeking, or was this just a response implying that he had no business getting out of his car?

He had no business getting out of his car to look for a suspect...unless he was a police officer. Which he was not!

[03Lightningrocks]

If you folks want to be law enforcement officers, getting a CHL was not the first step. Good luck with that. Don't ever forget, you don't have law enforcement authority. There is a HUGE difference in self defense and running around looking for trouble...which is what Zimmerman did. ZIMMERMAN WITNESSED NO CRIME TAKING PLACE!

[jmra]

I must have missed the part of the story where Zimmerman innocently got out of his car and was attacked. I was more focus on him following the dude around the neighborhood because the guy had a hoody and was black.

Can someone direct me to the report that Zimmerman just happened to be getting out of his car and was attacked?

I don't think anyone here said that he just "innocently got out of his car and was attcked". However, there have been several reports the he claims he lost the guy, and was headed back to his car, when Martin approached him from behind. Is that what you were seeking, or was this just a response implying that he had no business getting out of his car?

He had no business getting out of his car to look for a suspect...unless he was a police officer. Which he was not!

That is your opinion, but he did not break any law in getting out of his car and following Martin from a distance.

[03Lightningrocks]

Oh... and sissy... I was not implying anything! I was checking to see if I missed something here... obviously... by your reaction... I missed nothing.

[Kadelic]

That is your opinion, but he did not break any law in getting out of his car and following Martin from a distance.

Except that the 911 operator specifically (edit: essentially) told him not to follow...

[jmra]

If you folks want to be law enforcement officers, getting a CHL was not the first step. Good luck with that. Don't ever forget, you don't have law enforcement authority. There is a HUGE difference in self defense and running around looking for trouble...which is what Zimmerman did. ZIMMERMAN WITNESSED NO CRIME TAKING PLACE!

I don't think anyone here is trying to be law enforcement. The argument could be made that Zimmerman was following at a distance to ensure the best description possible for police. Ther is not one shred of evidence to suggest that Zimmerman attempted a confrontation or attempted in anyway to detain Martin.

[jmra]

That is your opinion, but he did not break any law in getting out of his car and following Martin from a distance.

Except that the 911 operator specifically told him not to follow...

1. There is no evidence to suggest that he continued to follow Martin after the operator said "we don't need to to do that".
2. The operator did not tell him to stop. She said, "we don't need you to do that". That is very different than "Stop following him!".
3. No one is legally bound to do what a 911 operator tells them to do.

[Keith B]

That is your opinion, but he did not break any law in getting out of his car and following Martin from a distance.

Except that the 911 operator specifically told him not to follow...

I do not have to follow ANY instructions the 911 operator gives me. They are usually NOT law enforcement officers. No matter, they have no force of law.

While I agree it would have been much wiser to have stayed in his car instead of following initially, the 911 operator only asked him if he was following him. When Zimmerman said yes, the 911 operator stated 'You don't need to do that.' He didn't tell him to stop following or to not follow him. However, we are now hearing that Zimmerman may have actually turned around and headed back to his car and then was ambushed by Martin.

EDIT TO ADD: jmra beat me to it.

[03Lightningrocks]

Following the guy for what reason??? Because he was wearing a hoody? Because he was black??? So we should just randomly start following people around the neighborhoods at night? What if the guy your following thinks you are about to mug him??? Then he turns on you out of what he thinks is self defense. Did I miss the part where he was seen commiting a crime?

[mamabearCali]

What you missed, 03lighteningrocks, is that following someone and watching someone to simply observe them is not illegal. Jumping someone and using lethal force against a person who has done nothing more than follow you is.

If Martin was worried that night he had many legal options. Continue on his way. Call the police. Turn around and watch the watcher. He did not have cause to use lethal force against Zimmerman (beating someones head into a sidewalk is lethal force).

If a person were to use lethal force against a person they only thought was mugger and it turned out they were trying to give them car keys back, they would be in serious hot water.


Edit:
If you want to start following people around your neighborhood that is up to you. I don't have time for that nonsense.

[matriculated]

If you folks want to be law enforcement officers, getting a CHL was not the first step. Good luck with that. Don't ever forget, you don't have law enforcement authority. There is a HUGE difference in self defense and running around looking for trouble...which is what Zimmerman did. ZIMMERMAN WITNESSED NO CRIME TAKING PLACE!

Heavens to betsy! Someone else noticed that too.

One thing I've never heard of is someone looking for trouble and not finding any. It's hard enough avoiding trouble, but actively looking for it usually produces swift results. Zimmerman went looking and found some pretty quick.

Just as a general matter, I think that CHL's are supposed to be held to a higher standard. We have the ability to swiftly end someone's life attached to some section of our hip (usually), and knowing that we have this power should make us more cautious, not less. That concept clearly never sunk in with Zimmerman.

[mamabearCali]

One thing I've never heard of is someone looking for trouble and not finding any. It's hard enough avoiding trouble, but actively looking for it usually produces swift results. Zimmerman went looking and found some pretty quick.

Just as a general matter, I think that CHL's are supposed to be held to a higher standard. We have the ability to swiftly end someone's life attached to some section of our hip (usually), and knowing that we have this power should make us more cautious, not less. That concept clearly never sunk in with Zimmerman.

Someone else pointed this out before but it bears repeating. This is the same argument used to say "Well she was wearing a mini-skirt so she deserved to be assaulted." edited out....unnecessary beating of a horse.

[matriculated]

One thing I've never heard of is someone looking for trouble and not finding any. It's hard enough avoiding trouble, but actively looking for it usually produces swift results. Zimmerman went looking and found some pretty quick.

Just as a general matter, I think that CHL's are supposed to be held to a higher standard. We have the ability to swiftly end someone's life attached to some section of our hip (usually), and knowing that we have this power should make us more cautious, not less. That concept clearly never sunk in with Zimmerman.

Someone else pointed this out before but it bears repeating. This is the same argument used to say "Well she was wearing a mini-skirt so she deserved to be assaulted." So what do you think, should we start charging women who attack their attackers with assault?

Huh? I honestly haven't got the first clue as to what you mean. Would you mind expounding?

[mamabearCali]

One thing I've never heard of is someone looking for trouble and not finding any. It's hard enough avoiding trouble, but actively looking for it usually produces swift results. Zimmerman went looking and found some pretty quick.

Just as a general matter, I think that CHL's are supposed to be held to a higher standard. We have the ability to swiftly end someone's life attached to some section of our hip (usually), and knowing that we have this power should make us more cautious, not less. That concept clearly never sunk in with Zimmerman.

Someone else pointed this out before but it bears repeating. This is the same argument used to say "Well she was wearing a mini-skirt so she deserved to be assaulted." So what do you think, should we start charging women who attack their attackers with assault?

Huh? I honestly haven't got the first clue as to what you mean. Would you mind expounding?

He got out of his car to observe...not wise, but not illegal either. He was beat up on his way back to his car. A woman walking through a neighborhood wearing skimpy clothes, again not wise but perfectly legal, puts temptation in front of a man, and gets assaulted on the way back to her car. You could argue quite effectively that both of them "went looking for trouble" but neither did anything wrong and because of what they did got assaulted. So if the woman wearing a skimpy dress shoots the person trying to rape her should we take into consideration the clothing she was wearing and if it "provoked" the man into raping her?

[A-R]

One thing I've never heard of is someone looking for trouble and not finding any. It's hard enough avoiding trouble, but actively looking for it usually produces swift results. Zimmerman went looking and found some pretty quick.

Just as a general matter, I think that CHL's are supposed to be held to a higher standard. We have the ability to swiftly end someone's life attached to some section of our hip (usually), and knowing that we have this power should make us more cautious, not less. That concept clearly never sunk in with Zimmerman.

Someone else pointed this out before but it bears repeating. This is the same argument used to say "Well she was wearing a mini-skirt so she deserved to be assaulted." So what do you think, should we start charging women who attack their attackers with assault?

Huh? I honestly haven't got the first clue as to what you mean. Would you mind expounding?

She saying that holding CHLees to a higher standard just because they carry a gun is similar to saying a woman was "asking for it" (being raped) because she wore a sexy outfit. It's a logical fallacy to suggest someone is "asking for it" (whatever IT may be) simply because of what they choose to legally wear, carry, etc. It's the same logical fallacy used to suggest Zimmerman was bound to do something like this because of his previous arrest, because of his multiple calls to 911, etc. and the same logical fallacy to suggest Martin was a problem waiting to happen because of possible drug use, previous suspensions, what kind of clothes he wore or type of teeth jewelry he wore.