Government's right to track you with GPS

[Dave2]

I know it seems like an intrusion, but what really is the difference between this and just following someone around? LE can follow anyone without a warrant. This is just a cheaper and more effective way of doing so.

Yeah, but that's way more resource-intensive than sticking a gadget under their car, so they won't be tracking just anyone.

Or is it your point that without a gadget under the car LE will only be able to track those that are more deserving?

Yes, that is my point. I'll bet they're even deserving enough for the cops to get a warrant to track them with a secret GPS gadget, if such a thing were required (which it should be). The "warrantless" bit is the only part of this scheme that I object to.

[C-dub]

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/1 ... ng-device/

Caught Spying on Student, FBI Demands GPS Tracker Back

Here you go Abraham. I thought I saw this here somewhere. I don't know where quote within this one is from.

[Abraham]

C-dub,

Okay.

Where's the proof (examples man, I need examples to be convinced this is going on) this is a widespread development of what appears to be police state-like tactics used against our citizens?

I'd like to believe our law enforcement agencies would use such a tactic against criminals/terrorists and not as a fishing tool used arbitrarily against just anyone, cuz hey, you never know what you might find...

I want to believe the various U.S. agencies are ethical (obviously there have been exceptions...) and wouldn't use such a tactic unless it's necessary to catch criminals/terrorists.

Am I being naive?

I dunno, maybe...

Just read your reply before posting the above and that's the one example (and the only one) I'm aware of. (I alluded to it in an earlier post) Given his background information, I'd say he wasn't just some run-of-the-mill citizen. He may very well be linked to a terrorist. Of course, he may not be too, but we don't know all the facts. He certainly doesn't appear to be just some joe-schmoe the feds arbitrarily decided to track...and that's the crux of this entire thing.

I don't see example after example of regular citizens being tracked, but I see a lot of fear, that it MIGHT be happening.

Is it?

[Pawpaw]

Abraham,

I guess I missed your point, but I thought the whole complaint was their ability to put the GPS device in place without a warrant.

For me, it's about checks and balances. For any agency to be allowed to come onto private property & plant a surveillance device without proving the need to a judge is stepping into dangerous territory.

[Dave2]

I want to believe the various U.S. agencies are ethical (obviously there have been exceptions...) and wouldn't use such a tactic unless it's necessary to catch criminals/terrorists.

See, if the government wasn't allowed to do this without a warrant, it wouldn't matter nearly as much. As it is right now, a bad cop wants to place GPS tracker on a dude they don't like to see if they can get any dirt on them. The plan succeeds, the bad cop finds out that the dude went to a gun store and tells the guy's rabidly anti-gun boss, and the guy gets fired. If the system was working, though, the whole plan would've failed when the bad cop was denied access to the GPS tracker because there wasn't a warrant.

The question is never, "How can this be used?" Instead, ask, "How will this be misused?"

[C-dub]

C-dub,

Okay.

Where's the proof (examples man, I need examples to be convinced this is going on) this is a widespread development of what appears to be police state-like tactics used against our citizens?

I'd like to believe our law enforcement agencies would use such a tactic against criminals/terrorists and not as a fishing tool used arbitrarily against just anyone, cuz hey, you never know what you might find...

I want to believe the various U.S. agencies are ethical (obviously there have been exceptions...) and wouldn't use such a tactic unless it's necessary to catch criminals/terrorists.

Am I being naive?

I dunno, maybe...

Just read your reply before posting the above and that's the one example (and the only one) I'm aware of. (I alluded to it in an earlier post) Given his background information, I'd say he wasn't just some run-of-the-mill citizen. He may very well be linked to a terrorist. Of course, he may not be too, but we don't know all the facts. He certainly doesn't appear to be just some joe-schmoe the feds arbitrarily decided to track...and that's the crux of this entire thing.

I don't see example after example of regular citizens being tracked, but I see a lot of fear, that it MIGHT be happening.

Is it?

Let's keep in mind that I think you and I agree on this subject. I don't really see a problem with this. Misuse can occur with anything. Coming onto private property (driveway), which we already know is treated as a public place from the discussions around here regarding OC on one's property, is not that intrusive and could just as easily be done while we are at a grocery store or any other obviously public place.

I look at this like roaches. If there's one you can bet there are a hundred. This one example can't possibly be the only one. This is just one that has made the news.

[duckhead]

How about we shoot the feebs with a tranquilizer dart, attach a wildlife tracking collar, and drop them in the middle of the wilderness? Maybe we should do a pilot project with Abraham because he likes GPS tracking so much.

[Barbi Q]

What's the harm in tracking people without permission?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/met ... 41100.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[C-dub]

How about we shoot the feebs with a tranquilizer dart, attach a wildlife tracking collar, and drop them in the middle of the wilderness? Maybe we should do a pilot project with Abraham because he likes GPS tracking so much.

Easy now.

[C-dub]

What's the harm in tracking people without permission?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/met ... 41100.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Other than being able to get $$$ for the school by saying that the student was there, when they can only prove that their badge was, I don't see too much downside to this. I'm sure there is, but I'm not seeing it yet. I do think the benefits will far outweigh the negatives.

[skub]

What's the harm in tracking people without permission?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/met ... 41100.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Other than being able to get $$$ for the school by saying that the student was there, when they can only prove that their badge was, I don't see too much downside to this. I'm sure there is, but I'm not seeing it yet. I do think the benefits will far outweigh the negatives.

Haven't thought deeply about this, but it sure makes my spidey senses tingle. One downside that immediately comes to mind is that it conditions the coming generation to have their every movement tracked by "the authorities".

[C-dub]

What's the harm in tracking people without permission?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/met ... 41100.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Other than being able to get $$$ for the school by saying that the student was there, when they can only prove that their badge was, I don't see too much downside to this. I'm sure there is, but I'm not seeing it yet. I do think the benefits will far outweigh the negatives.

Haven't thought deeply about this, but it sure makes my spidey senses tingle. One downside that immediately comes to mind is that it conditions the coming generation to have their every movement tracked by "the authorities".

If there were a way to implant something in my daughter that wouldn't harm her in any way that would allow me to track her anywhere in the world and show me vital signs I would do it. Of course, there would also have to be the capability to remove the device at my daughters request once she turned 18y. How many parents wouldn't do this to be able to track their kids if they turned up missing? Paranoid? Maybe. She's my baby!

[davidtx]

This article touches on a closely related subject. I think this captures the issue nicely:

Justice Louis Brandeis wrote in his dissent in the first Supreme Court wiretapping case, Olmstead vs. United States (1928):

“Discovery and invention have made it possible for the Government, with means far more effective than stretching upon the rack, to obtain disclosure in court of what is whispered in the closet. ... The progress of science in furnishing the Government with means of espionage (on American citizens) is not likely to stop with wiretapping.”

[skub]

What's the harm in tracking people without permission?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/met ... 41100.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Other than being able to get $$$ for the school by saying that the student was there, when they can only prove that their badge was, I don't see too much downside to this. I'm sure there is, but I'm not seeing it yet. I do think the benefits will far outweigh the negatives.

Haven't thought deeply about this, but it sure makes my spidey senses tingle. One downside that immediately comes to mind is that it conditions the coming generation to have their every movement tracked by "the authorities".

If there were a way to implant something in my daughter that wouldn't harm her in any way that would allow me to track her anywhere in the world and show me vital signs I would do it. Of course, there would also have to be the capability to remove the device at my daughters request once she turned 18y. How many parents wouldn't do this to be able to track their kids if they turned up missing? Paranoid? Maybe. She's my baby!

I've raised two daughters and a son, and I might have done it when they were very small, but I would have stopped long before they were 18. In fact, our cell phone provider offers the option of being able to do exactly this through their phone and I made an active decision not to use this feature with my son. From the day they were born, we have raised them to leave home, and I can't do that looking over their shoulder everywhere they go. Were there times they weren't home and I was seriously worried about them? Sure. Was there risk involved? Sure. But there is also risk involved in knowing where they are every minute - the risk that I will misuse and abuse that knowledge to control and manipulate them, to rob them of the opportunity to make their own decisions - and their own mistakes - to do things their own way, and develop a personality independently of mine - in short, to rob them of the opportunity to mature and make their own way.
We started this journey of raising kids 30 years ago, and in the time since, I have only known of two situations in which people we knew lost children to foul play. In neither case do I think a tracking device would have prevented the foul play, although, in one case, it might have helped them find the body sooner. On the other hand, I have known of more situations than I can count where the parents controlled their children's lives in minute detail with the result that the children were crippled in their ability to deal with life as they moved into adulthood. And this without the technological benefit of being able to track their every move. I have no doubt that even the best intentioned parent would misuse that information to the detriment of their children and the parents relationship with those children. And if well intentioned parents are at risk, just imagine what school administrators will do with that kind of information.

[KD5NRH]

What's the harm in tracking people without permission?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/met ... 41100.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Other than being able to get $$$ for the school by saying that the student was there, when they can only prove that their badge was, I don't see too much downside to this.

Because pedophiles and parents without visitation rights could never come up with a way to abuse it, of course.

The technology is readily available, and pretty discreet. A few cheap used cars parked around the area with scanners would get you a route mapped in great detail, and since the other kids are tagged, would tell you if and when your target is walking home alone, too.