TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

[SA-TX]

I'd like to know what the open carry advocates have been doing for the last year since the legislature adjourned on June 1. Why have they waited until 6 months before the elections to attempt to get this on the TSRA agenda?

IMHO, that is opening up a whole new can of worms. Very good point. The implication to me is that there really is not as much fervent support for OC as some posters might like there to be.
My own list has it under the category of "Basic Rights that need to be reclaimed from overreaching governments", but not on my Priority List of "Realistic things that need to be done".

KC5AV, a quick history of the threads here will indicate that some of us have been working with TSRA and others on OC since the last session. There hasn't been any waiting. Until Charles's recent announcement that OC would definitely not be a part of the TSRA agenda, I thought we were making progress. I had hoped that while it may not be the highest priority bill -- and I agree that it should not be -- that it might at least be on the list of things that we attempt to get done.

To think that OC shouldn't be illegal doesn't mean that one can't support CC and the other items on TSRA's agenda. I support them all. I'll work hard for them all. I look forward to when they become law. I just want OC to be a part of the discussion.

Purplehood, I agree with you on the constitutional nature of this. Which parts of the First Amendment do we have to get a government license to exercise? What about the 4th Amemdement? The 5th? The 6th? These are fundamental principles of liberty. The forthcoming McDonald case should help this discussion. If the USSC says that the 2nd Amendment applies to the states via the 14th, the next part of the debate has to be "What is the nature of the right conveyed by the 2nd that is beyond governmental control?". That will get us to the heart of the matter, as I see it.

SA-TX

[Rex B]

SA-TX, I agree with you 99%

this part

"...next part of the debate has to be "What is the nature of the right conveyed by the 2nd that is beyond governmental control?""

needs to read

"...next part of the debate has to be "What is the nature of the right recognized by the 2nd that is beyond governmental control?""

[SA-TX]

SA-TX, I agree with you 99%

this part

"...next part of the debate has to be "What is the nature of the right conveyed by the 2nd that is beyond governmental control?""

needs to read

"...next part of the debate has to be "What is the nature of the right recognized by the 2nd that is beyond governmental control?""

Agreed. I stand corrected. The 2nd, like all of the bill of rights, simply protects the pre-existing rights endowed by our Creator as stated in the Declaration of Independence.

[jecsd1]

deleted

[jecsd1]

I just sent this letter (actual letter USPS) to my state Representative Dan Gattis and my state Senator Steve Ogden.



"With the 2011 session approaching I thought I might visit a few issues that are of key importance to me, my family and many of my neighbors.

First, the recently attempted "parking lot" bill for concealed handguns. This bill will prove crucial in providing safety for many Texans that currently find themselves unprotected on their commutes to and from work because their employers do not allow firearms. I face a 65 mile round trip every day and cannot carry my pistol in my car due to employer’s regulations. Please support this bill for the coming session.

Second, is the "campus carry" bill. College students, though many of them are old enough to buy, own an even obtain a CHL, are currently denied the right to protect themselves on campuses of higher education. I pray that it doesn't take an act of violence, like the tragedy in Virginia, for Texans to see the vitality of a law such as this. Please support this bill as well.

Third is any bill, similar to those of Montana and Tennessee, that would forbid the overreaching regulation of the US Congress on the intrastate commerce of “Texas made” firearms, accessories and ammunition. This bill is as much about the 9th and 10th amendments to the US Constitution as it is the 2nd. I urge your support of this bill as well.

Lastly is an open carry bill. Texas is one of only SIX states that currently prohibit or have no provisions for open carry. Texas has always been a champion of individual rights and freedoms. A law allowing open carry is long overdue. Please work with your colleagues and supportive organizations such as TSRA and NRA and let’s have open carry law passed in Texas.

Thank you sincerely for your time and I look forward to your response."





For the most part I agree with Charles in that we need to get this done in "baby steps" but I think it should at least be on the agenda, even if it's on the bottom. After all, our RKBA rights weren't taken away all at once, it was done one stupid law at a time.

If everyone sent this, or something similar, to their state rep and senator I fail to see how it could NOT come up in 2011.

[Charles L. Cotton]

KC5AV, a quick history of the threads here will indicate that some of us have been working with TSRA and others on OC since the last session. There hasn't been any waiting. Until Charles's recent announcement that OC would definitely not be a part of the TSRA agenda, I thought we were making progress. I had hoped that while it may not be the highest priority bill -- and I agree that it should not be -- that it might at least be on the list of things that we attempt to get done.

You have called for TSRA involvement in the open-carry movement and you started stating that position during the 2009 Texas Legislative Session. However, you did so only here on TexasCHLforum and neither you nor anyone else have been "working with TSRA" on the open-carry issue. Also, since shortly before the 2009 legislative session when OC first came up, I have steadfastly stated that TSRA was not going to push for OC until and unless our members wanted us to do so. I was equally clear that if our members every did, then we would put OC through our regular two year cycle, since it is a high profile issue.

I am at a loss to understand how you would have entertained even the slightest thought that TSRA was going to put OC on our legislative agenda for 2011. My "recent announcement that OC would definitely not be a part of the TSRA agenda" was not the first time I've said this, it's merely the most recent.

I will follow up on KC5AV's question and ask why OC supporters haven't formed a Texas-based, Texas-controlled organization to work for OC? If my suggestion had been acted upon, then you would have had over a year to organize and promote a responsible OC bill. More importantly, you would have had the opportunity to measure the real public support for OC by looking at the number of members this new organization would or would not have attracted. People who are serious about OC better start making plans for 2013 now, but I suspect this will again fall on deaf ears.

Chas.

[stevie_d_64]

I think I can illustrate what can happen if you let a bull enter a china shop...

http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlat ... ses-2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sure, the California law was kinda screwy, what isn't

But the fact of the matter is everything this group has touched has turned to garbage...

Get a win under your hat before coming back to Texas...I think I would like to protect what we have more than lose some, or all of it, for vanity...

[Salty1]

Personally I believe that most of us are fully behind Charles and Alice and truly appreciate the work they do for us as members of the TSRA. With the years of experience they have navigating the State House and getting things done one step at a time they have proven to be effective in representing the majority of the TSRA members.

The positioning of Bills and getting support is not easy, getting them through and out of commitee is even more difficult. It makes no sense to me to file a Bill that will be stalled and die in a black hole because it does not have the proper level of support. What we want and what the politicians want are typically 2 different things, timing, positioning and putting in the time to gain support are major efforts.Let's try to get Campus Carry and the Parking Lot Bill done then we can look down the road.

My concern with OC is that if it did get passed how many new business would then post 30.06 signs? I believe that many more than today, the anti's would have a field day going after businesses to post their locations and if they become successful what exactly was accomplished? Is it not possible that by having OC we could actually lose rights as to where we can carry today by having many more place posting their buildings? To be honest I initially signed the OC.org petition, if there was a mechanism to retract my support I would do so, I know others that would do it as well.

[G.A. Heath]

When I leave work I can drive twenty miles to cross the state line into New Mexico and into an open carry state. As a general rule they have on average no more or fewer "no guns signs" than we do (our 30.06 included). I want to think that some businesses would post signs to prohibit carry while many more will take the Starbuck's approach and simply ignore the issue. The few that do post signs will get all the media attention while those that don't will get our money. A good OC/CC (Constitutional Carry) bill would have language to the effect that sufficient notice is all that is required to prevent open/unlicensed carry leaving 30.06 alone where it applies to license holders only. A good OC/CC bill would need to go out of its way to ensure that its goals do not conflict or reduce our current rights and the bill that was proposed last session would not have done that.

[Douva]

When I leave work I can drive twenty miles to cross the state line into New Mexico and into an open carry state. As a general rule they have on average no more or fewer "no guns signs" than we do (our 30.06 included). I want to think that some businesses would post signs to prohibit carry while many more will take the Starbuck's approach and simply ignore the issue. The few that do post signs will get all the media attention while those that don't will get our money. A good OC/CC (Constitutional Carry) bill would have language to the effect that sufficient notice is all that is required to prevent open/unlicensed carry leaving 30.06 alone where it applies to license holders only. A good OC/CC bill would need to go out of its way to ensure that its goals do not conflict or reduce our current rights and the bill that was proposed last session would not have done that.

Refresh my memory--when was New Mexico's lengthy, heated, well-publicized legislative battle over open carry? Oh, that's right, they never had one. New Mexico never had a statutory prohibition against open carry. They had legalized open carry long before they had legalized concealed carry; therefore, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Also, New Mexico does not have specific signage requirements--a business owner can use any sign, no matter how big or small, to prohibit carry on the premises. And until next month, restaurant carry is still illegal. Convenience store/grocery store carry was illegal until 2007. And they still don't allow carry in state parks or on public transportation. In the seven years I've been a CHL holder, we Texans have had a lot more freedom in where we can carry than have our neighbors in New Mexico, so I don't really envy New Mexico's freedom in how they can carry.

[bizarrenormality]

New Mexico never had a statutory prohibition against open carry.

It sounds like they didn't (don't) have as many anti-gun carpetbaggers as Texas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

New Mexico never had a statutory prohibition against open carry.

It sounds like they didn't (don't) have as many anti-gun carpetbaggers as Texas.

What locations are off-limits in New Mexico?

Chas.

[jester]

What locations are off-limits in New Mexico?

Schools and universities. Courts. Secure areas of airports. Bars.

Not too much different from Texas, except bars and restaurants. Starting next month, they draw the line at 60% food while Texas draws the line at 51% alcohol.

They don't seem to require someone to disarm to vote or attend a sporting event. It's also apparently legal to carry out in the open, even without a license.

[SA-TX]

I think I can illustrate what can happen if you let a bull enter a china shop...

http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlat ... ses-2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sure, the California law was kinda screwy, what isn't

But the fact of the matter is everything this group has touched has turned to garbage...

Get a win under your hat before coming back to Texas...I think I would like to protect what we have more than lose some, or all of it, for vanity...

Which group would that be? OpenCarry.org? Firstly, unlike other groups, it rarely sponsors or organizes anything. The UOC carriers in CA may be members, but I doubt much was centrally planned or orchastrated by John or Mark, the only two individuals who can speak for OCDO. My assessment of the membership is that they are 2A activists. OC is by its nature somewhat bold and it shouldn't come as a surprise that those who fervently believe in it are unafraid to take unilateral action. The highway litter pick-ups in PA and OH are other examples. The gathering in Las Vegas on the strip is another. I'm not aware of any official OCDO sponsorship of any of these activities or meetings, like the UOC gatherings in CA, but instead a product of the members taking action on their own. If you read some of the threads about UOC in CA you'll find that some members argued AGAINST widespread UOC predicting that exactly this might happen.

Those who read my posts here know that I'm a participating member of both forums. I try to "call 'em as I see 'em". When folks there acted in ways that I thought were counter-productive, I said so. Likewise when I think a broadside against that group of folks is unwarranted, I'll try to bring my perspective to the conversation.

As for wins, some members of OCDO have "wins" in court and out-of-court settlements for violations of their civil rights. Police agencies in several states have issued new opinions/orders/directives/memoranda based on interactions with OCDO members. These tend to state that OC is legal and they direct officers how to interact with them while respecting federal and state court decisions on 4A/search-and-seizure law. I regard these as victories because the rights of all gun carriers are strengthened.

Legislative victories are harder to quantify because, as I mentioned, the organization rarely gets involved directly. Mark and John publish articles and give interviews but the Texas billboard and radio ad campaign was the first time I'm aware of a coordinated attempt to raise the issue. That campaign suceeded in raising awareness and getting politicans to at least comment on the issue (the governor's office, Land Commissioner Patterson, Sen. Wentworth and others). Most recently Governor Perry was on Tom Gresham's GunTalk radio program. To put it in full context, the governor stated that he was a big CC guy. When Tom said "that's your choice, governor, but why shouldn't all Texans be able to make up their own minds as I do here in Louisiana" Perry said that something "might get done" about open carry this session. A victory? Certainly not winning the war, but I don't think it is an exaggeration to say it was a small skirmish that ended well when OC has gained enough prominance to have a radio host press the governor of Texas about it and for him to not oppose or dismiss the idea out of hand. My guess is that while Perry isn't going to campaign for it, he'd sign an OC bill.

As I've stated many times before, I agree that some members didn't help the cause in the way that they behaved. That is unfortunate but we need to move beyond it. I continue to believe that all Texas gun owners should try to be as united as possible to ensure that our pro-2A agenda gets the attention that it deserves and I believe that we harm our ability to marshall those forces if we fight amongst ourselves. I confess that I find it disappointing that there is seeming hostility to OC. I'll speak only for myself, but earlier in this thread I reiterated yet again how I am FOR all of TSRA's agenda and agree that OC isn't among the top four or five priorities. Where is the similar sentiment? I don't own .50 cal weapons, but I'd never agree to a ban on them. I'm not a hunter, but I don't want to see restrictions there either. My point is that I support ALL pro-2A legislation whether I personally benefit or not. I hope others will consider a similar approach to OC.

SA-TX

[SA-TX]

KC5AV, a quick history of the threads here will indicate that some of us have been working with TSRA and others on OC since the last session. There hasn't been any waiting. Until Charles's recent announcement that OC would definitely not be a part of the TSRA agenda, I thought we were making progress. I had hoped that while it may not be the highest priority bill -- and I agree that it should not be -- that it might at least be on the list of things that we attempt to get done.

You have called for TSRA involvement in the open-carry movement and you started stating that position during the 2009 Texas Legislative Session. However, you did so only here on TexasCHLforum and neither you nor anyone else have been "working with TSRA" on the open-carry issue. Also, since shortly before the 2009 legislative session when OC first came up, I have steadfastly stated that TSRA was not going to push for OC until and unless our members wanted us to do so. I was equally clear that if our members every did, then we would put OC through our regular two year cycle, since it is a high profile issue.

I am at a loss to understand how you would have entertained even the slightest thought that TSRA was going to put OC on our legislative agenda for 2011. My "recent announcement that OC would definitely not be a part of the TSRA agenda" was not the first time I've said this, it's merely the most recent.

I will follow up on KC5AV's question and ask why OC supporters haven't formed a Texas-based, Texas-controlled organization to work for OC? If my suggestion had been acted upon, then you would have had over a year to organize and promote a responsible OC bill. More importantly, you would have had the opportunity to measure the real public support for OC by looking at the number of members this new organization would or would not have attracted. People who are serious about OC better start making plans for 2013 now, but I suspect this will again fall on deaf ears.

Chas.

Charles, I cannot answer the question. Those who have approached me about being a prominent part of such an organization have always received the same reply: I travel very frequently for business and cannot play such a role. I'm doing what I can do for the advancement of ALL pro-2A causes by participating here, at OCDO, and being a life member of TSRA. As for "working with TSRA" I tried to schedule a meeting with you and offered to buy you the drink of your choice in Charlotte. Doesn't that count?

Charles you once posted a very compliment note about my involvement here and at OCDO and mentioned that I might make a good representative of the OC movement. I haven't gone back to dig up the thread but I'll bet that my reply to you was very similar: while that may be a good path and someone should act upon your advice, I am not in a position to do so. Given that, I've poured my energies into getting new people to join TSRA and appealing for all pro-2A Texans to be supportive of all pro-gun legislation whether it is their personal highest priority or not. Out of curiosity, how many other times have you suggested that fellow gun owners form a separate organization to pursue a broadening of Texas law regarding firearms?

Perhaps my hope was misplaced. Maybe my feeling that OK passing a bill might be a harbinger of good things to come in Texas was unrealistic. I suppose the activity in nearly all other shall-issue non-OC states led me to think that TSRA might reconsider. If my optimism stemming from the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram interviewing Alice and getting comment from the governor's office was unwarranted, I plead guilty. No, you never said so but YES I really thought that we'd find some common ground to where SOME small step in the right direction might be taken.

SA-TX