TSRA support of Texas Open Carry

[Conagher]

Due to computer issues I have not had much time for this since Saturday. I am willing to step up and do something, not because I want to open carry (because I don't) but because I feel it is important.

One thing I am reading Charles as saying is that we need a Texas based group/organization to get involved, I personally doubt we will see anything this session as time is running out, but in order to facilitate a Texas organization I registered a domain and setup some forums. I was wanting to wait and get things cleaned up and a logo of some sort in place but I will go public with it now. Should a Texas based organization form and prove themselves organized I will transfer the domain to them. I will even host it as long as I can afford to. Now who else is willing to step up to the plate and do something besides demand someone else do something? The website is http://txopencarry.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In fact if someone drafts a GOOD bill I will even contact my legislators and politely ask them to support it after thanking them for the work they have done so far.

Thanks G.A. Heath.

I am still struggling with this “Texas based organization” so maybe you could help clarify since you seem to also promote this concept.

The way I am interpreting the suggestion is to create a Texas based organization which is separate and distinct from our already existing Texas based 2A organization (TSRA). Is this correct? And what would the charter of this organization be? From the discussion it appears the charter would be to promote OC to TSRA members until enough support is garnered that TSRA decides to address the issue. Then what happens? Does this separate organization disappear and turn everything over to TSRA at that point?

I am honestly unclear of the suggestion so any help to clarify would be appreciated.

As for a draft bill; Rep. Debbie Riddle’s staff already drafted one last session so there is really no need to create a separate one. I have no idea at this point if she plans to submit it next session. I have asked Charles in a previous post if he would kindly review and provide any suggestions just as he did for OpenCarry.org draft bill but I have received no response from him on this. So I would appreciate if you could follow through with your commitment and politely ask for their support of Rep. Riddle’s draft bill.

Thanks and Have a Nice Day!

[Charles L. Cotton]

Due to computer issues I have not had much time for this since Saturday. I am willing to step up and do something, not because I want to open carry (because I don't) but because I feel it is important.

One thing I am reading Charles as saying is that we need a Texas based group/organization to get involved, I personally doubt we will see anything this session as time is running out, but in order to facilitate a Texas organization I registered a domain and setup some forums. I was wanting to wait and get things cleaned up and a logo of some sort in place but I will go public with it now. Should a Texas based organization form and prove themselves organized I will transfer the domain to them. I will even host it as long as I can afford to. Now who else is willing to step up to the plate and do something besides demand someone else do something? The website is http://txopencarry.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In fact if someone drafts a GOOD bill I will even contact my legislators and politely ask them to support it after thanking them for the work they have done so far.

Thanks G.A. Heath.

I am still struggling with this “Texas based organization” so maybe you could help clarify since you seem to also promote this concept.

The way I am interpreting the suggestion is to create a Texas based organization which is separate and distinct from our already existing Texas based 2A organization (TSRA). Is this correct? And what would the charter of this organization be? From the discussion it appears the charter would be to promote OC to TSRA members until enough support is garnered that TSRA decides to address the issue. Then what happens? Does this separate organization disappear and turn everything over to TSRA at that point?

I am honestly unclear of the suggestion so any help to clarify would be appreciated.

As for a draft bill; Rep. Debbie Riddle’s staff already drafted one last session so there is really no need to create a separate one. I have no idea at this point if she plans to submit it next session. I have asked Charles in a previous post if he would kindly review and provide any suggestions just as he did for OpenCarry.org draft bill but I have received no response from him on this. So I would appreciate if you could follow through with your commitment and politely ask for their support of Rep. Riddle’s draft bill.

Thanks and Have a Nice Day!

I don't know if you are serious with this question or not. If so, the clear intent is to act on my year old suggestion that OC be promoted by a Texas-based organization rather than Virginia-based OpenCarry.org. Are you seriously asking about charters? If so, why? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I see no indication the proposal is to lobby TSRA or TSRA members. Rather, it appears to me Mr. Heath is suggesting that a Texas-based organization be formed to promote OC in a responsible and non-confrontational manner.

I cannot and will not participate in drafting an OC bill unless it is for TSRA or NRA. I previously responded to the atrocious bill drafted by OpenCarry.org and made suggestions on how it should approach modifying current statutes. I did not offer specific language, nor will I unless we (TSRA or NRA) take on this project. If we do, it won't be in 2011 since we work on a 2 year cycle.

Chas.

[Conagher]

Due to computer issues I have not had much time for this since Saturday. I am willing to step up and do something, not because I want to open carry (because I don't) but because I feel it is important.

One thing I am reading Charles as saying is that we need a Texas based group/organization to get involved, I personally doubt we will see anything this session as time is running out, but in order to facilitate a Texas organization I registered a domain and setup some forums. I was wanting to wait and get things cleaned up and a logo of some sort in place but I will go public with it now. Should a Texas based organization form and prove themselves organized I will transfer the domain to them. I will even host it as long as I can afford to. Now who else is willing to step up to the plate and do something besides demand someone else do something? The website is http://txopencarry.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In fact if someone drafts a GOOD bill I will even contact my legislators and politely ask them to support it after thanking them for the work they have done so far.

Thanks G.A. Heath.

I am still struggling with this “Texas based organization” so maybe you could help clarify since you seem to also promote this concept.

The way I am interpreting the suggestion is to create a Texas based organization which is separate and distinct from our already existing Texas based 2A organization (TSRA). Is this correct? And what would the charter of this organization be? From the discussion it appears the charter would be to promote OC to TSRA members until enough support is garnered that TSRA decides to address the issue. Then what happens? Does this separate organization disappear and turn everything over to TSRA at that point?

I am honestly unclear of the suggestion so any help to clarify would be appreciated.

As for a draft bill; Rep. Debbie Riddle’s staff already drafted one last session so there is really no need to create a separate one. I have no idea at this point if she plans to submit it next session. I have asked Charles in a previous post if he would kindly review and provide any suggestions just as he did for OpenCarry.org draft bill but I have received no response from him on this. So I would appreciate if you could follow through with your commitment and politely ask for their support of Rep. Riddle’s draft bill.

Thanks and Have a Nice Day!

I don't know if you are serious with this question or not. If so, the clear intent is to act on my year old suggestion that OC be promoted by a Texas-based organization rather than Virginia-based OpenCarry.org. Are you seriously asking about charters? If so, why? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I see no indication the proposal is to lobby TSRA or TSRA members. Rather, it appears to me Mr. Heath is suggesting that a Texas-based organization be formed to promote OC in a responsible and non-confrontational manner.

I cannot and will not participate in drafting an OC bill unless it is for TSRA or NRA. I previously responded to the atrocious bill drafted by OpenCarry.org and made suggestions on how it should approach modifying current statutes. I did not offer specific language, nor will I unless we (TSRA or NRA) take on this project. If we do, it won't be in 2011 since we work on a 2 year cycle.

Chas.

Hello Charles, thanks for the response.

To answer your question; Yes, I am seriously asking about the charter, and here’s why:

I and I’m sure most others on this forum believe the best chance (some may even believe the only chance) of getting OC in Texas is for TSRA to sponsor it. So the immediate goal is to get TSRA to sponsor this effort. And as you have stated many times in one form or another;

“ … we respond to the needs and wishes of our members”.

So if we form an organization “to promote OC”, to whom do we promote it? If we are to accomplish the goal to have TSRA sponsor the effort, then there appears to be only one answer based on your responses, TSRA members. If I am not looking at this correctly, then please enlighten me because I am honestly confused. I will be happy to help start another organization if that is what is needed, I’m just not sure what to do –“promote OC” is pretty generic and not really sure what would be done beyond what is already being done. However, I am absolutely open to suggestions.

Something that may be helpful and I asked this previously is if you can point me to a model; Employer Parking Lot item for example. How was this promoted to TSRA members and how was the feedback established to ensure the majority of members were supportive of this? Maybe the Texas OC effort can mimic this activity.

I am not sure how to even ask about SCCC since they are not a “Texas-based” organization; but if you think something there is applicable, maybe like how TSRA member feedback was solicited to ensure the majority of members supported this, then possibly this is something we can mimic also.

I am with all sincerity looking for help on this!

Thanks and Have a Nice Day!

[Charles L. Cotton]

Due to computer issues I have not had much time for this since Saturday. I am willing to step up and do something, not because I want to open carry (because I don't) but because I feel it is important.

One thing I am reading Charles as saying is that we need a Texas based group/organization to get involved, I personally doubt we will see anything this session as time is running out, but in order to facilitate a Texas organization I registered a domain and setup some forums. I was wanting to wait and get things cleaned up and a logo of some sort in place but I will go public with it now. Should a Texas based organization form and prove themselves organized I will transfer the domain to them. I will even host it as long as I can afford to. Now who else is willing to step up to the plate and do something besides demand someone else do something? The website is http://txopencarry.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In fact if someone drafts a GOOD bill I will even contact my legislators and politely ask them to support it after thanking them for the work they have done so far.

Thanks G.A. Heath.

I am still struggling with this “Texas based organization” so maybe you could help clarify since you seem to also promote this concept.

The way I am interpreting the suggestion is to create a Texas based organization which is separate and distinct from our already existing Texas based 2A organization (TSRA). Is this correct? And what would the charter of this organization be? From the discussion it appears the charter would be to promote OC to TSRA members until enough support is garnered that TSRA decides to address the issue. Then what happens? Does this separate organization disappear and turn everything over to TSRA at that point?

I am honestly unclear of the suggestion so any help to clarify would be appreciated.

As for a draft bill; Rep. Debbie Riddle’s staff already drafted one last session so there is really no need to create a separate one. I have no idea at this point if she plans to submit it next session. I have asked Charles in a previous post if he would kindly review and provide any suggestions just as he did for OpenCarry.org draft bill but I have received no response from him on this. So I would appreciate if you could follow through with your commitment and politely ask for their support of Rep. Riddle’s draft bill.

Thanks and Have a Nice Day!

I don't know if you are serious with this question or not. If so, the clear intent is to act on my year old suggestion that OC be promoted by a Texas-based organization rather than Virginia-based OpenCarry.org. Are you seriously asking about charters? If so, why? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I see no indication the proposal is to lobby TSRA or TSRA members. Rather, it appears to me Mr. Heath is suggesting that a Texas-based organization be formed to promote OC in a responsible and non-confrontational manner.

I cannot and will not participate in drafting an OC bill unless it is for TSRA or NRA. I previously responded to the atrocious bill drafted by OpenCarry.org and made suggestions on how it should approach modifying current statutes. I did not offer specific language, nor will I unless we (TSRA or NRA) take on this project. If we do, it won't be in 2011 since we work on a 2 year cycle.

Chas.

Hello Charles, thanks for the response.

To answer your question; Yes, I am seriously asking about the charter, and here’s why:

I and I’m sure most others on this forum believe the best chance (some may even believe the only chance) of getting OC in Texas is for TSRA to sponsor it. So the immediate goal is to get TSRA to sponsor this effort. And as you have stated many times in one form or another;

“ … we respond to the needs and wishes of our members”.

So if we form an organization “to promote OC”, to whom do we promote it? If we are to accomplish the goal to have TSRA sponsor the effort, then there appears to be only one answer based on your responses, TSRA members. If I am not looking at this correctly, then please enlighten me because I am honestly confused. I will be happy to help start another organization if that is what is needed, I’m just not sure what to do –“promote OC” is pretty generic and not really sure what would be done beyond what is already being done. However, I am absolutely open to suggestions.

Something that may be helpful and I asked this previously is if you can point me to a model; Employer Parking Lot item for example. How was this promoted to TSRA members and how was the feedback established to ensure the majority of members were supportive of this? Maybe the Texas OC effort can mimic this activity.

I am not sure how to even ask about SCCC since they are not a “Texas-based” organization; but if you think something there is applicable, maybe like how TSRA member feedback was solicited to ensure the majority of members supported this, then possibly this is something we can mimic also.

I am with all sincerity looking for help on this!

Thanks and Have a Nice Day!

I suspected this was your goal; now it's confirmed.

I do not know how I can be more clear; TSRA will not take on open-carry until and unless a substantial majority of our members want us to expend tremendous political capital to do so. If and when they do, then we will put it on our political agenda and it will be handled as a regular part of our two year cycle. I said this in 2009, so it should come to no surprise to anyone.

This means OC cannot and will not be part of TSRA's 2011 Legislative Agenda. The TSRA/NRA Candidate Questionnaires have already been completed and the OC issue was not addressed. This is a key element in our procedure to get candidates "on record" concerning high profile issues. It is not possible to get an Interim Study authorized to "study" the OC issue and this is yet another key part of getting high profile legislation passed.

Mr. Heath is trying to organize a Texas-based effort to pass OC, without resorting to the use of faulty tactics used last session. You want to "lobby" TSRA and try to get us to take on OC in 2011 and abandon methods that have proven successful for many years. It appears to me that Mr. Heath's goals and yours are incompatible, but that's not my call.

Chas.

[chabouk]

...my year old suggestion that OC be promoted by a Texas-based organization rather than Virginia-based OpenCarry.org.

Charles, I respectfully request that you stop repeating this canard. The only thing "Virginia-based" about opencarry.org is that one of the two owners lives there.

And, once again: OpenCarry.org is not an organization. To the degree that any internet forum can be an "organization" at all, it's much less of one than TexasCHLforum.com (no moderators, etc.)

Everything anyone does related to OCDO is done as an individual. Mike and John speak for themselves and the website; everyone else speaks only for themselves. Just like here: every comment to a news story, letter to a politician, etc., that is made by TexasCHLforum.com members, is made by those people individually. This is not an "organization", it's a community.

[Keith B]

...my year old suggestion that OC be promoted by a Texas-based organization rather than Virginia-based OpenCarry.org.

Charles, I respectfully request that you stop repeating this canard. The only thing "Virginia-based" about opencarry.org is that one of the two owners lives there.

And, once again: OpenCarry.org is not an organization. To the degree that any internet forum can be an "organization" at all, it's much less of one than TexasCHLforum.com (no moderators, etc.)

Everything anyone does related to OCDO is done as an individual. Mike and John speak for themselves and the website; everyone else speaks only for themselves. Just like here: every comment to a news story, letter to a politician, etc., that is made by TexasCHLforum.com members, is made by those people individually. This is not an "organization", it's a community.

I think you better rethink your statement as per the definition they ARE an organization:

Organization
/ˌɔrgənəˈzeɪʃən/ [awr-guh-nuh-zey-shuhn]
–noun
1.the act or process of organizing.
2.the state or manner of being organized.
3.something that is organized.
4.organic structure; composition: The organization of this painting is quite remarkable.
5.a group of persons organized for some end or work; association: a nonprofit organization.
6.the administrative personnel or apparatus of a business.
7.the functionaries of a political party along with the offices, committees, etc., that they fill.
8.an organism.

Unfortunately, opencarry.org is a disorganization, and that is what lead to their demise. Too many individuals trying to go different directions.

As Charles stated, the way to get anything done in the political arena is to win friends and influence enemies. A group working together with a common goal and passing the same message in very organized and business-like manner gets much more attention than individuals all spouting their separate views and versions and muddying up the waters.

As already stated, if Texans want OC, then they need to pull together with a central lead and spokesperson, hold rallies for support, get petitions signed, etc. They need a clear and concise mantra that explains the reason for open carry legislation other than 'It's my 2nd amendment right'. You have to convince those that don't understand it that it will not be blood in the streets, etc. This all has to be done in a clear, concise and non-combative manner. Once the general populace sees that version of OC supporters vs the radicals that were spouting their rhetoric last time, then you may be able to gain some ground.

Bottom line, OC, if it ever passes, will take time. Charles and the TSRA worked for 10 hard years to get CHL passed here. It may take that long or longer to get your voice heard and win enough support from the legislators and other organizations that it stands a chance of surviving a pass through the gauntlet of the house, senate and governor.

[joe817]

IMO, this debate has come full circle and is now stuck in an infinite loop, the result of which is a circular argument. May we lock this thread now?

[G.A. Heath]

To summarize the results of this thread
1: TSRA is not going to do anything for OC at this time, its not part of their agenda because there is not enough interest in their membership.
2: TSRA will not appose a GOOD OC bill (Last years drafted legislation does not qualify as good), but will appose a bad one.
3: OCDO Has made personal attacks on legislators, TSRA staff, ect. and as a result has hurt their efforts in the future.
4: A Texas based organization is needed because: A: Texans don't want to be told what to do by people from out of state. B: It has more political potential.
5: SCCC may not be a Texas based organization but after the Virginia Tech attack the governor indicated he would support such legislation so it gets a better position than OC along with other reasons).
6: Its too late to get the TSRA involved in this years OC movement, even if the membership showed major support for it, so we need to quit beating that dead horse.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Calling someone a liar, even me, regardless of the term used will get you banned every time.

Chas.

Main Entry: ca·nard
Pronunciation: \kə-ˈnärd also -ˈnär\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, literally, duck; in sense 1, from Middle French vendre des canards à moitié to cheat, literally, to half-sell ducks
Date: 1851

1 a : a false or unfounded report or story; especially : a fabricated report.

[Purplehood]

To summarize the results of this thread
1: TSRA is not going to do anything for OC at this time, its not part of their agenda because there is not enough interest in their membership.
2: TSRA will not appose a GOOD OC bill (Last years drafted legislation does not qualify as good), but will appose a bad one.
3: OCDO Has made personal attacks on legislators, TSRA staff, ect. and as a result has hurt their efforts in the future.
4: A Texas based organization is needed because: A: Texans don't want to be told what to do by people from out of state. B: It has more political potential.
5: SCCC may not be a Texas based organization but after the Virginia Tech attack the governor indicated he would support such legislation so it gets a better position than OC along with other reasons).
6: Its too late to get the TSRA involved in this years OC movement, even if the membership showed major support for it, so we need to quit beating that dead horse.

I don't see the TSRA taking an official stance one way or the other until and unless its membership express a desire to do so.
I see "No comment" as being the standard TSRA response to inquiries on the subject.

Chas. I always thought that a Canard was a fancy boat.

[KC5AV]

Chas. I always thought that a Canard was a fancy boat.

That's a canoe.

[Dragonfighter]

Chas. I always thought that a Canard was a fancy boat.

That's a canoe.

And here I thought it was the stabilizing plane at the front of some aircraft.

[mr surveyor]

Chas. I always thought that a Canard was a fancy boat.

That's a canoe.

And here I thought it was the stabilizing plane at the front of some aircraft.

it's a dessert pudding

[Conagher]

I suspected this was your goal; now it's confirmed.

I apologize if that goal was unclear. I would appreciate any suggestions to my original post, especially the sentence below that would have made this clearer:

"I am a TSRA member and I request that TSRA support open-carry in the 2011 legislative session."

I do not know how I can be more clear; TSRA will not take on open-carry until and unless a substantial majority of our members want us to expend tremendous political capital to do so. If and when they do, then we will put it on our political agenda and it will be handled as a regular part of our two year cycle. I said this in 2009, so it should come to no surprise to anyone.

Again I appologize, I guess I am not being very clear on this item either, but will try a third time. How was it determined that "a substantial majority of our members" wanted TSRA to pursue Employee Parking Lot and SCCC? Is it possible for Texas OC to mimic these items to determine that majority?

Mr. Heath is trying to organize a Texas-based effort to pass OC, without resorting to the use of faulty tactics used last session. You want to "lobby" TSRA and try to get us to take on OC in 2011 and abandon methods that have proven successful for many years. It appears to me that Mr. Heath's goals and yours are incompatible, but that's not my call.

I'm not really sure what Mr. Heath's goals are so currently it is not possible for me to determine if my goals are compatible with his are not. However, if Mr. Heath wants to establish a Texas-based effort to pass OC, count me in and let me know how I can help!

Thanks and Have a Nice Day!

[Conagher]

To summarize the results of this thread
1: TSRA is not going to do anything for OC at this time, its not part of their agenda because there is not enough interest in their membership.

How do you know this? How is this being determined? How was this determined for Employeer Parking Lot and SCCC?

2: TSRA will not appose a GOOD OC bill (Last years drafted legislation does not qualify as good), but will appose a bad one.

How will TSRA know if it is a GOOD or BAD OC bill? Charles has stated, and I am assume this to be true for other TSRA staffers, that they cannot and will not review and comment

3: OCDO Has made personal attacks on legislators, TSRA staff, ect. and as a result has hurt their efforts in the future.

O.K.??? Not sure what this has to do with the OP.

4: A Texas based organization is needed because: A: Texans don't want to be told what to do by people from out of state. B: It has more political potential.

This was not true for Employee Parking Lot or SCCC, but please sign me up as member #2! (assuming you are member 1)

5: SCCC may not be a Texas based organization but after the Virginia Tech attack the governor indicated he would support such legislation so it gets a better position than OC along with other reasons).

I believe the governer also indicated his support of OC last year.

6: Its too late to get the TSRA involved in this years OC movement, even if the membership showed major support for it, so we need to quit beating that dead horse.

OC carry will be pursued in 2011, even Charles recognizes this. How will TSRA respond if a legislator asks for their review or opinion on a draft bill?

Thanks and Have a Nice Day!