TexasCHLforum.com

The regular deadline (March 13th) for filing bills has passed. No open-carry bill was filed, although Rep. Riddle did file a bill that would allow certain disabled CHLs to open-carry under limited circumstances. Undoubtedly, thousands of open-carry supporters are disappointed and a few are planning ahead for next session. Still others on OpenCarry.org are talking about filing suit against Texas to establish open-carry as a constitutional right. (This argument is apparently based upon the erroneous belief that the Heller case established a right to open carry. It did not.) One poster wants to sue the State of Texas on a theory of unequal protection of the law, if Rep. Riddle's open-carry for certain disabled persons passes. Most of the calls to sue Texas are coming from residents of other states.

Some reasonable OpenCarry.org supporters are calling for dialog and trying to get TSRA involved next session. These few seem to imply that they want to see a working relationship between TSRA and OpenCarry.org. I can almost promise that will never happen, and not just because we have markedly different methods of passing legislation. The founders of OpenCarry.org (Stollenwerk and Pierce) want to take the full credit for passing open-carry and the last thing they want is to see TSRA take on open-carry as a project. Although some OpenCarry.org posters have stated that TSRA should be actively involved, Stollenwerk has never once said that. In fact, the only comments he's made about TSRA have been negative.

On March 3, 2009, Stollenwerk started a new thread on OpenCarry.org that he titled Summary of TSRA deliberations on open carry from annual meeting below which he added the subtitle Looks like TSRA leaders do not support open carry (The link is to the general area, as the subtitle is visible only from this level.) His post contained only a link to a personal summary written by Howard Nemerov covering his conversations with attendees at the TSRA Annual Meeting and events in Mesquite. Although Howard's article pretty clearly discussed conversations with TSRA members, the clear intent of Stollenwerk's title and subtitle was to make it appear that "TSRA officials" had discussed open-carry and oppose the concept. I thought this didn't sound possible, especially since the subject was never discussed in the Legislative Committee meeting I attended. However, I was not at the Board meeting, so I wanted to confirm my suspicions before I posted on this subject. I have confirmed that the TSRA Directors did not discuss open-carry and this is what I would expect, since this would be the responsibility of the Legislative Committee.

So one must ask why anyone would intentionally make a false allegation that "TSRA leaders do not support open carry." The obvious motive is to discourage Texas open-carry supporters from looking to TSRA to take on open-carry as a project in 2011. I'm not saying, or even hinting, that TSRA will make this a project for 2011, but I think Texas open-carry supporters need to realize what is coming from the Virginia based OpenCarry.org. In fact, based upon Howard's discussion with TSRA members, it appears that TSRA members generally do not support open-carry. (This is consistent with our experience based upon what our members tell us are issues they feel are important.) This could change in the future, then again this could remain the majority opinion among TSRA members.

The open-carry issue will not go away, nor should it. Texans who support open-carry should continue to pursue their goal but they need to choose their champion very carefully. Hopefully, they learned a lot this session in terms of what works and what doesn't. For example, the 60,000 "signatures" on the Internet petition had absolutely no impact whatsoever, other than to give those signing it false hope that it would help get open-carry passed. The $25,000 advertising campaign was money absolutely wasted and could have been put to much better use. Some open-carry supporters say the petition and ad campaign got people interested in the issue, but did it really get anyone interested that wasn't already interested? Did it perhaps energize the opposition? Hopefully, Texas open-carry supporters also learned that an in-your-face attitude doesn't work in Texas. Not only did that approach fail to get an open-carry bill filed, OpenCarry.org managed to earn a terrible reputation in Austin! How does this help the cause? But politicians were not the only targets of the venomous attacks. Fellow gun owners were ridiculed and accused of not supporting the Second Amendment (or were accused of supporting gun control) if they didn't blindly support open-carry. Legitimate concerns and opposing opinions were scoffed at as taking a "Brady" attitude. How does this help prepare for 2011? Does anyone really think that insulting Texans and calling them idiots helps to pass open-carry? How about vowing to oppose A and A+ rated Senators and Representatives? Does that sound like a plan for success? This is what OpenCarry.org brought to the discussion this session.

Texas open-carry supporters, the 2011 Texas Legislative Session is right around the corner, so now is the time to decide if you want open-carry, or OpenCarry.org. You can't have both.

Chas.

Is it possible to rescind my name from their little online petition? I signed it either in late 2007 or early 2008 but seeing as how things are going I may want to distribute my support to other organizations...

Charles L. Cotton wrote:So one must ask why anyone would intentionally make a false allegation that "TSRA leaders do not support open carry."

What's the official position of the TRSA leadership? I can't find it on the TSRA website.

Sue the state? That's dumb. And terrible strategy.

tarkus wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:So one must ask why anyone would intentionally make a false allegation that "TSRA leaders do not support open carry."

What's the official position of the TRSA leadership? I can't find it on the TSRA website.

There isn't one. We have not addressed the issue.

Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Texas open-carry supporters, the 2011 Texas Legislative Session is right around the corner, so now is the time to decide if you want open-carry, or OpenCarry.org. You can't have both.

Chas.

You know my answer: I want open carry. Strategy and tactics are the means to the end, not the end itself. I've long called for all pro-2A groups to until behind an agenda that continues to increase our carry options in this state. Parking lot and college carry and two examples of that. Fixing the "court or court office" is another. Getting rid of ridiculous restrictions such as polling places and professional sporting events are further examples. Yes, open carry is another example. I'm not saying where it should be ranked in the stack, but it should be there if for no other reason than the practical one: sometimes it's a hassle to fully conceal. The state of Tennessee which culturally is as close to Texas as I'm aware of (as it should be since many of the first Texans were Tennesseans), doesn't have a problem with licensed carry, open or concealed.

I have advocated two core ideas both here and on OpenCarry.org: 1) we should work together for the good of all and 2) open carry isn't as radical as it seems once you look at the actual practice of it elsewhere. Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Georgia, Louisiana, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Arizona. These are all southern and southwestern states that have much in common with Texas and open carry simply isn't a problem there. Why would it be here? All available evidance suggests that it wouldn't. I stand by both of these principles and look forward to working with Charles and everyone else who may respectfully disagree with me on open carry, but who wants to expand 2A freedom in Texas.

SA-TX

SA-TX wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Texas open-carry supporters, the 2011 Texas Legislative Session is right around the corner, so now is the time to decide if you want open-carry, or OpenCarry.org. You can't have both.

Chas.

You know my answer: I want open carry. Strategy and tactics are the means to the end, not the end itself. I've long called for all pro-2A groups to until behind an agenda that continues to increase our carry options in this state. Parking lot and college carry and two examples of that. Fixing the "court or court office" is another. Getting rid of ridiculous restrictions such as polling places and professional sporting events are further examples. Yes, open carry is another example. I'm not saying where it should be ranked in the stack, but it should be there if for no other reason than the practical one: sometimes it's a hassle to fully conceal. The state of Tennessee which culturally is as close to Texas as I'm aware of (as it should be since many of the first Texans were Tennesseans), doesn't have a problem with licensed carry, open or concealed.

I have advocated two core ideas both here and on OpenCarry.org: 1) we should work together for the good of all and 2) open carry isn't as radical as it seems once you look at the actual practice of it elsewhere. Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Georgia, Louisiana, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Arizona. These are all southern and southwestern states that have much in common with Texas and open carry simply isn't a problem there. Why would it be here? All available evidance suggests that it wouldn't. I stand by both of these principles and look forward to working with Charles and everyone else who may respectfully disagree with me on open carry, but who wants to expand 2A freedom in Texas.

SA-TX

Maybe this is off-topic, but having been raised in CO and visited recently I was not even aware that they had any form of open-carry. I must admit that any contention that if I haven't seen it, it must not exist is spurious at best, but hey, I haven't seen it.

SA-TX wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Texas open-carry supporters, the 2011 Texas Legislative Session is right around the corner, so now is the time to decide if you want open-carry, or OpenCarry.org. You can't have both.

Chas.

I have advocated two core ideas both here and on OpenCarry.org: 1) we should work together for the good of all

To avoid any confusion and to head off anyone saying I went back on my offer, I will never work with OpenCarry.org. Plus, all I'm offering to do is meet the leaders of a Texas-based, Texas-only open-carry organization and offer suggestions on how to organize and promote your goal. I cannot and will not be involved on an ongoing basis, unless TSRA/NRA take on the project. If we do, then I'll jump in with both feet.

SA-TX wrote:2) open carry isn't as radical as it seems once you look at the actual practice of it elsewhere.

Yes it is. Open-carry is a very radical concept in political terms. Unlicensed open-carry is even more radical. Failure to recognize this and develop a plan to change the political and public perception of open-carry will doom open-carry to failure again. We didn't deny that concealed-carry was a radical idea when we were fighting for it, but we addressed people's fears. One of the ways we did that was by accepting restrictions we knew were unnecessary, knowing full well we'd come back in future sessions to repeal them.

SA-TX wrote:Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Georgia, Louisiana, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Arizona. These are all southern and southwestern states that have much in common with Texas and open carry simply isn't a problem there.

Yes it is! If open-carry in the 44 states cited by OpenCarry.org was truly a non-issue, then there wouldn't be a website and a movement dedicated to promoting open-carry. There isn't a http://www.SundayAfternoonPicnic.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and a movement to get people to the parks after church. Why? Because it's not an issue; people do it all the time without being hassled, arrested, prosecuted and having to sue someone. Even a cursory review of OpenCarry.org reveals post after post about someone being hassled, detained, arrested, or prosecuted because they were carrying openly. Often people are calling for the heads of the LEO that was involved, or reporting on lawsuits that were filed over the alleged mistreatment. Carrying openly most certainly does cause problems and any plan to legalize open-carry must address that issue. But that won't happen if open-carry supporters are in denial about what is happening in some or all of those 44 other states.

SA-TX wrote:Why would it be here? All available evidence suggests that it wouldn't.

There is absolutely no evidence that Texans or Texas LEOs will not respond negatively to open-carry. (Yeah I know, a double negative.) The only evidence on Texans' response to liberalizing a longstanding prohibition on carrying handguns is the response to the original concealed-carry law from 1995 until we were forced to change the law (setting up TPC §30.06) in 1997. Again, if open-carry supporters ignore this political reality, they do so at their own peril. If you really want to drive a wedge between gun owners, then let us wake up the morning after open-carry passes to find that a there is a huge increase in 30.06 signs on businesses! OpenCarry.org's approach is to simply say "it won't happen," while my approach would be "it's happened before, so we have to do everything we can to prevent it from happening again." But if you don't first acknowledge the risk, then you will never put forth the effort to prevent it.

Aside from the complaints I have already presented about OpenCarry.org in other posts, the single biggest hurdle I see to passage of open-carry in Texas is the unwillingness of open-carry supporters to accept political reality and deal with the situation as it exists and not as you wish it to be. In my view, to have any chance of success, a Texas-based, Texas-only open-carry organization must recognize, openly acknowledge, and plan to deal with the following issues in a positive manner without demonizing fellow gun owners:

• ► Open-carry in Texas is a radical concept in political terms (public & elected officials);
  ► Licensed open-carry should be the first goal (we had concealed carry for 12 yrs. before passing unlicensed car-carry)
  ► Accept restrictions designed to calm public fears (ex. no open-carry on school campuses, hospitals, day care centers);
  ► Shun any person or organization that even hints at taking an in-your-face approach with elected officials, gun organizations, or fellow gun owners - these people will make you a pariah in Austin;
  ► Accept the fact that it likely will take more than one legislative session to pass open-carry;
  ► Get someone to draft a proposed bill that knows what they are doing in Texas so as not to jeopardize past gains ;
  ► Get a someone to run your organization that knows how to lobby in Austin.

There is a lot more to tackling a project like this than I can or will put on an open Internet forum. I will offer this one more suggestion, get your organization formed yesterday; not tomorrow, or next month. But don't publicize what you are doing and don't let anyone promote the appearance that "we going to get you next time!"

Obviously, these are just my opinions and I won't be offended if everyone of them are rejected. Heck, I don't want open-carry anyway.

Chas.

It amazes me how a bunch of foreigners from Virginia think they know more about Texas political reality than the Texas State Rifle Association.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

SA-TX wrote:Why would it be here? All available evidence suggests that it wouldn't.

There is absolutely no evidence that Texans or Texas LEOs will not respond negatively to open-carry. (Yeah I know, a double negative.) The only evidence on Texans' response to liberalizing a longstanding prohibition on carrying handguns is the response to the original concealed-carry law from 1995 until we were forced to change the law (setting up TPC §30.06) in 1997.

There are people stopped by the police for "driving while black" but that doesn't mean Americans should condone laws that allow cops to enforce their opinions instead of the law. I think the way to fix the problem is educating the police and then discipline any cops who won't obey the law. In extreme cases, I think jail is an appropriate penalty for a pattern of civil rights violations.

Captain Matt wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

SA-TX wrote:Why would it be here? All available evidence suggests that it wouldn't.

There is absolutely no evidence that Texans or Texas LEOs will not respond negatively to open-carry. (Yeah I know, a double negative.) The only evidence on Texans' response to liberalizing a longstanding prohibition on carrying handguns is the response to the original concealed-carry law from 1995 until we were forced to change the law (setting up TPC §30.06) in 1997.

There are people stopped by the police for "driving while black" but that doesn't mean Americans should condone laws that allow cops to enforce their opinions instead of the law. I think the way to fix the problem is educating the police and then discipline any cops who won't obey the law. In extreme cases, I think jail is an appropriate penalty for a pattern of civil rights violations.

What does this have to do with open-carry? Plus, my comments you quoted had nothing to do with LEO's, but private property owners posting generic "no guns" decals and signs.

Chas.

No longer valid

Good post Locksmith.
At OCs start I too logged on & would still like to see OC in Texas. Some of the reasons I would are not what OC wants though. I admit seeing someones 1911 or 29 Smith walking down the street would sure be nice for me. Conversation would surely follow.
(I see enough of the Gs OCed to keep that itch scratched )

Kinfolks on my property cant OC & when I go to San Antonio to see my son I have to stay covered outside. I know the argument that someone has to complain. I can see someone calling in a "MEN w/ a gun" when my whole family gets together.
Subdivision safety walks after a disaster would be nice to OC where everyone knows everyone. At that time shotguns are shouldered here so why not OC a hand gun.

OC law does not require one to OC at the Nursing Home, Sweet Sally's Baby shower, or Sunday morning Church.
Comon sence should reign & that is why I too dont go to OC. org any more.

longtooth wrote:Good post Locksmith.
At OCs start I too logged on & would still like to see OC in Texas. Some of the reasons I would are not what OC wants though. I admit seeing someones 1911 or 29 Smith walking down the street would sure be nice for me. Conversation would surely follow.
(I see enough of the Gs OCed to keep that itch scratched )

Kinfolks on my property cant OC & when I go to San Antonio to see my son I have to stay covered outside. I know the argument that someone has to complain. I can see someone calling in a "MEN w/ a gun" when my whole family gets together.
Subdivision safety walks after a disaster would be nice to OC where everyone knows everyone. At that time shotguns are shouldered here so why not OC a hand gun.

OC law does not require one to OC at the Nursing Home, Sweet Sally's Baby shower, or Sunday morning Church.
Comon sence should reign & that is why I too dont go to OC. org any more.

I would like to see OC as well.

I do not go the OC either (probably haven't in a year), but only because my primary interest right now is CC.

I am not trying to shun them....nor do I consider them our enemy. I do not agree with their methodology, but I but don't agree with every sentiment/policy/method here either. In fact....lately, a person less familiar with the members here.... might construe some of what has been written as "venomous" and counter productive.

It seems much time and "extra effort" has been made to single out OC.org. and hold them up to scrutiny...considering there is no bill and the issue is dead for this legislative session.

I too....would like to see some type of statement beyond the benign "we don't have a position" given by the NRA/TSRA. Folks are simply curious IF there is discussion being had about the subject. Apparently, it is something that interests a fairly good number of people. Even the poll here (though locked IIRC and never spoken of again) showed an approval of OC (in some form) of 81%.

So....just WHEN do we "get the ball rolling"?

I too support open carry in Texas, but believe it needs to be a Texan-driven initiative. I am not a native Texan but have been here in excess of a decade, and in a few years, the majority of my life. I've been here long enough to appreciate the way folks like to do business, the respect that true Texans lend and demand, and OC.org does not comprehend any of that. I've not lent my support to OC.org for these reasons.


I think it is time that some of us here, the like-minded, begin discussions to form a Texan organization for open carry, which can do the leg work to organize positive support and which can work with the TSRA to enact open carry in a politically prudent, constructive manner. Not to mention, be free and clear of all association of OpenCarry.org and their negative reputation.

Just a thought....