Missouri Lawakers Override Governors Veto

[mojo84]

The only thing I know is that the brain develops slowly and no matter how much we all think our own children are exceptional they are also children until sometime in their 20's when their brain finally finishes 'percolating'. What I don't know but highly suspect is that everyone speaking about their exceptional child who should have every right and privilege knows many other children of many other parents who are not nearly as exceptional as their own child. They know that while their exceptional child need not be worried about at all with the HEAVY responsibility imposed by the burden of carrying a firearm, the other definitely less exceptional children could and would be a worry being armed in proximity to their exceptional child.

I'm not suggesting restricting anyone else's children, only stating a reasonable reason for concern about those possibly exceptional children carrying around my actually exceptional children.

You are starting to get exceptionally condescending in your tone. I think we all know and understand not everyone matures at the same rate. Some never mature. Considering I have been self sufficient since I was fifteen and married since I was 19 and wife 18, I find your assumption everyone is still a child until their mid twenties is wrong and the way you present your opinions offensive. I was also an assistant vice president of a savings and loan and in charge of 65 million dollars of repossessed real estate at 21 years of age. I was responsible for multiple employees and a lot of assets long before I was of age to buy a handgun or a beer.

The question is, what is the "magical" age of maturity and what should the law be. Do we set the law to match the lowest common denominator?

[SigM4]

Back to the topic at hand, it is indeed a good day for gun owners here in Missouri. Glad to see the overwhelming support of some very important legislation.

[Alf]

I wish my son could at least keep his gun with him on his college campus or at least in his car.

Unless he has a criminal record and isn't eligible for MPA, Texas law doesn't prohibit guns in cars on college campus.

[mojo84]

I wish my son could at least keep his gun with him on his college campus or at least in his car.

Unless he has a criminal record and isn't eligible for MPA, Texas law doesn't prohibit guns in cars on college campus.

The college's rules do.

[Keith B]

I wish my son could at least keep his gun with him on his college campus or at least in his car.

Unless he has a criminal record and isn't eligible for MPA, Texas law doesn't prohibit guns in cars on college campus.

College rules do.

They can't prohibit it if he has a CHL. http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/ ... 01907F.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Keith B]

I wish my son could at least keep his gun with him on his college campus or at least in his car.

Unless he has a criminal record and isn't eligible for MPA, Texas law doesn't prohibit guns in cars on college campus.

College rules do.

They can't prohibit it if he has a CHL. http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/ ... 01907F.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note to add: See where he is only 18.

[mojo84]

[gljjt]

The only thing I know is that the brain develops slowly and no matter how much we all think our own children are exceptional they are also children until sometime in their 20's when their brain finally finishes 'percolating'. What I don't know but highly suspect is that everyone speaking about their exceptional child who should have every right and privilege knows many other children of many other parents who are not nearly as exceptional as their own child. They know that while their exceptional child need not be worried about at all with the HEAVY responsibility imposed by the burden of carrying a firearm, the other definitely less exceptional children could and would be a worry being armed in proximity to their exceptional child.

I'm not suggesting restricting anyone else's children, only stating a reasonable reason for concern about those possibly exceptional children carrying around my actually exceptional children.

You are starting to get exceptionally condescending in your tone. I think we all know and understand not everyone matures at the same rate. Some never mature. Considering I have been self sufficient since I was fifteen and married since I was 19 and wife 18, I find your assumption everyone is still a child until their mid twenties is wrong and the way you present your opinions offensive. I was also an assistant vice president of a savings and loan and in charge of 65 million dollars of repossessed real estate at 21 years of age. I was responsible for multiple employees and a lot of assets long before I was of age to buy a handgun or a beer.

The question is, what is the "magical" age of maturity and what should the law be. Do we set the law to match the lowest common denominator?

True, not everyone is a "child" until their mid twenties. However a little Googling will show that generally, 18 year olds are different in their maturity (not necessarily intellect or reasoning but the part of the brain that controls emotional response) than 25 year olds. Most independent studies (University/APA/NIH/etc) agree that this is true. The automobile insurance industry empirically knows its true (male driver rates go down at 21 and 25). The alcohol studies concur. The military concurs. As one study noted, 18 year olds in the military carry and use all kinds of weapons, but are not in SF. There is a maturity required there they don't have.

We can set the age to carry a firearm at 18, I'm fine with that, but in general 21 year olds are more mature than at 18 (but not by much!) and 25 year olds are more mature, generally than 21 year olds, by a fair amount.

To say that there are 45 year olds that haven't 'percolated' yet or I was fifteen and married since I was 19 and wife 18 or I was also an assistant vice president of a savings and loan and in charge of 65 million dollars of repossessed real estate at 21 years of age are all red herrings. They only thing they prove is you are or have observed instances fairly outside the mean.

I am OK with 18/19 year olds carrying, but their maturity level, in general, is NOT as high as a 25 or a 45 year old. I don't doubt that those on this board who say their kids are mature enough to carry (mine are!!) but if they are anything like their parents, judging by the intelligent conversations on this board, they are on the upper side of the maturity curve for their age. The 'doesn't fall far from the tree' thing, in a positive light.

[gljjt]

BTW, I didn't find LDB415 offensive. He never stated that we shouldn't allow 18/19 year olds to carry. He never denegrated anyone or their kids. He stated that maturity peaks around 25 and that is essentially correct. Some may be more mature at 19 than most at 25 but we do continue to mature, albeit generally at a slower rate after the mid twenties.

[mojo84]

BTW, I didn't find LDB415 offensive. He never stated that we shouldn't allow 18/19 year olds to carry. He never denegrated anyone or their kids. He stated that maturity peaks around 25 and that is essentially correct. Some may be more mature at 19 than most at 25 but we do continue to mature, albeit generally at a slower rate after the mid twenties.

His repeated use of "exceptional child" was very condescending. Therefore, it became offensive.

I find it interesting how you lecture me on maturity and then pretty much counter that by saying you wouldn't mind the law being changed to 18 or 19 to carry.

I know and agree "generally" 25 year olds are more mature than 15 or 18 year olds. I Aldo know "generally" 45 year olds are mature than 25 year olds. I'm sure, if I live long enough, I'll be more mature at 60 than I am now. My point is, what is the "magic" age? We let teens that are 15 get behind a two ton killing machine but they can't carry a gun. Teens can join the military but can't buy a beer? Teens can help choose the president of our country but they can't buy a handgun. What makes twenty one the magic number for some things and not others? Also, notice I asked if we should set the laws to meet the lowest common denominator? If that's the case, people shouldn't be eligible to drive until they are 21 or 25.


Like I said earlier, I have not formulated a hard fast opinion on this and I am glad to see Missouri give it a shot. Hopefully, we will get a better idea of what the age limit should be if there should be one at all.

[Jumping Frog]

I think the level of an individual's maturity is the red herring. One nanny-state problem is losing the whole idea of being accountable for our actions.

Whether someone is age 18, 21, 25, 42, or 106, if they behave properly they should have the liberty to choose their actions.

Similarly, if someone is age 18, 21, 25, 42, or 106, if they commit a crime they should pay the consequences.

[gljjt]

I still don't see it as condescending. His point was related to maturity development not your child's level of said development. He was speaking in a general sense. You see it differently. We disagree.

As far as lecturing, I wasn't lecturing you. I apologize if it seemed so. I was simply stating that research shows that most maturity development occurs between 18 and 25 or so. More development occurs between those ages than between 25 and 45 or 25 and 65. A couple of commentors arguments appeared to me to be base on their individual personal experience of who they were or what they did at 19 or 21. A sample size of one is interesting but not valid research. Any of our observations of young adults we know is interesting, forms our opinions, myself included, but it isn't statistically valid research.

One interesting aspect of the research is related to emotional response, herd mentality, etc. Even young adults who make good decisions in stress free situations are as much as 50% more likely than an older adult to follow the crowd and make the wrong decision under stress.

Yes, most maturity development (adult level) occurs after 18. Yes, 18 is OK with me to carry. 21 would also be OK. However, I do firmly believe that whatever age we collectively choose, it should be the same for carry, voting, military service (if mandatory), alcohol consumption, signing legal documents, etc. Either you are an legally an adult or you're not.

[gljjt]

I think the level of an individual's maturity is the red herring. One nanny-state problem is losing the whole idea of being accountable for our actions.

Whether someone is age 18, 21, 25, 42, or 106, if they behave properly they should have the liberty to choose their actions.

Similarly, if someone is age 18, 21, 25, 42, or 106, if they commit a crime they should pay the consequences.

You submitted this while I was typing. Well tapping. I'm on a tablet!

I completely agree with what you so succinctly and correctly stated. 18, 19, 2, I don't care. You cross the chosen threshold, you are responsible for the liberty you enjoy.

Thanks!

[gljjt]

Like I said earlier, I have not formulated a hard fast opinion on this and I am glad to see Missouri give it a shot. Hopefully, we will get a better idea of what the age limit should be if there should be one at all.

On this we agree!

And thanks for the banter. I enjoy a good discussion (argument!!!). Anything I say that seems abrasive is not intended that way. I appreciate your points and they do make me consider my positions! I have even been known to change my views based on others input!!

Edited for grammar.

[LDB415]

I was not being condescending. I was making a point using English vocabulary and trying to be a little bit light about it. There does need to be more uniformity and responsibility in privileges for children. For example, we have a huge problem with dropouts and functional illiterates. You want to drive a car? You have to be making passing grades in school at grade level to get a license at 16. You get to drive for 12 months and if you are still at grade level with at least a 2.0 gpa then you get another year. If you graduate with at least a 2.0 legitimate gpa then you get a regular license. Otherwise you don't get to drive until maybe 19. Most likely the dropout rate will nearly disappear.