WA: Man found not guilty for drawing weapon on bouncers

[marksiwel]

It's one of those ideas that sounds good until you consider all the consequences.

The taxpayers pay for the reimbursement one way or another, through higher taxes or funds diverted from other uses.

I have no idea how the state of Washington funds this program.

Also keep in mind that a verdict of not guilty is not equal to innocent. Many of these defendants are as dirty as a septic tank, but the state could not manage to prove their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. This case is probably an example of that.

- Jim

I could almost support it in civil trails, but then again you would get screwed if went up against a Big Company or someone with alot of money.
I also would like to see a Judge be able to "Fine" someone for frivolous law suits.
If your 99 Year old Grandma who smoked and drank everyday died in her sleep, dont try and sue the paramedics for "Not trying" hard enough. Unless you can prove REAL Medical malpractice.
whats weird is Medical Malpractice suits % are the same as they are in the 80s, but due to inflation it just more money. The Tort reform going on in Malpractice right now is doing nothing to help the little guy, its all about helping the Insurance companies.
I dont want Healthcare reform I want Insurance Reform. Sorry got off an a rant.

I have seen some bouncers cross the line a time or to, normally the bouncers who are off duty LEOs seem to be the nicest.

[chabouk]

It's one of those ideas that sounds good until you consider all the consequences.

The taxpayers pay for the reimbursement one way or another, through higher taxes or funds diverted from other uses.

They get off cheap compared to what they'd pay if he was convicted and sent to prison for a couple of years. Aside from the cost of incarceration, there is his lost income that won't be taxed, his family will probably have to move to a cheaper place (less property tax), his wife and kids might have to go on assistance (welfare, food stamps), once he gets out he will be less employable, and even if he finds a job he will certainly make less money and pay less taxes... there are a lot of secondary social costs to incarceration.

[seamusTX]

Sorry, but you're mixing up separate issues.

In nearly all jurisdictions, when a criminal defendant is found not guilty, he walks out the courtroom door with no apology or compensation. He has to deal on his own with legal bills and other consequences of being accused. (The "other consequence" frequently include losing one's job and having professional licenses suspended.)

The State of Washington compensates defendants in some cases. I was just surprised to see that.

When a defendant is found guilty, the judge has sentencing options that can keep the defendant out of prison and his dependents off welfare -- probation, work-release, and the like.

- Jim

[gregthehand]

House of Blues is very similar to this; they have a cover charge or ticket for entry when they have concerts or bands, including bouncers/ticket takers, yet they are not a 51% establishment and have a FB license.

The one here in Houston has a 51% sign up in the bar area where you go to see concerts.

[E.Marquez]

House of Blues is very similar to this; they have a cover charge or ticket for entry when they have concerts or bands, including bouncers/ticket takers, yet they are not a 51% establishment and have a FB license.

The one here in Houston has a 51% sign up in the bar area where you go to see concerts.

Interesting,, After doing some looking around the TABC search site,, I see the Houston House of Blues has not one , but certificates under three categories..
BE - Beer Retailer's On Premise License
FB - Food and Beverage Certificate
LB - Mixed Beverage Late Hours Permit

So does this mean they can hang a 51%sign at will ? Removing it as they desire (assuming that are at that time only working under the Food and Beverage Certificate) then hang it again when they decide to?

If a retailer (what TABC calls it) operates under more than one type of certificate, if any of them put them in the 51% category does that apply to the entire establishment at all times? I understand from the post above the Houston house Of Blues has elected to compartmentalize there space and sign only one part.. but like bogus 30.06 signs, that mean nothing, under Texas Law, do these self imposed compartmentalization inside one establishment work within the law?

[Fangs]

I believe Kona Grill does the compartmentalization thing as well. I went to one in San Antonio once with a group of 4 friends. While we were waiting for a table to open up in the bar area an employee came around asking for our IDs. We had one underage person with us (our DD), and they wouldn't let her in that section of the restaurant, even sitting at a table. Then they refused to serve me Sake Bombs since we had a minor with us. <- My "not thrilled" face

[usmc8999]

I'm all for legal concealed carry in a bar. But I DO have a problem with someone carrying in a bar AND being intoxicated. There were a few hints in this article that some thought this guy had one too many and maybe that's why he was being tossed out? But again, not part of the charges, no breathalizer or involuntary blood draw (I mean, he doesn't live in Austin, Texas ), so who really knows.

I just think this whole scenario of this article is an interesting example for both sides for and against CCW in bars in Texas.

you hit the bullseye with your last statement. I personally would like the law changed. I would like to believe that the VAST majority of people responsible enough to carry a gun on a daily basis are also responsible enough to not drink to stupidity/irresponsibility. Statistically, probably unlikely to get whacked inside the bar, but the parking lot is like a cemetary. if you have a beef with somebody inside the bar, what's to stop him from waiting outside for you, especially if it's close to lights on time. We actually had an incident in Amarillo not too long ago where a guy did walk back into a bar and shot a guy. would have been nice for somebody to have had the ability to prevent/respond to this...

[dicion]

House of Blues is very similar to this; they have a cover charge or ticket for entry when they have concerts or bands, including bouncers/ticket takers, yet they are not a 51% establishment and have a FB license.

The one here in Houston has a 51% sign up in the bar area where you go to see concerts.

Interesting,, After doing some looking around the TABC search site,, I see the Houston House of Blues has not one , but certificates under three categories..
BE - Beer Retailer's On Premise License
FB - Food and Beverage Certificate
LB - Mixed Beverage Late Hours Permit

So does this mean they can hang a 51%sign at will ? Removing it as they desire (assuming that are at that time only working under the Food and Beverage Certificate) then hang it again when they decide to?

If a retailer (what TABC calls it) operates under more than one type of certificate, if any of them put them in the 51% category does that apply to the entire establishment at all times? I understand from the post above the Houston house Of Blues has elected to compartmentalize there space and sign only one part.. but like bogus 30.06 signs, that mean nothing, under Texas Law, do these self imposed compartmentalization inside one establishment work within the law?

Negative. HOB Houston has 1 licence for the entire premises. The License simply has multiple endorsements on it.
I personally have called TABC on this exact sign upstairs, and they have confirmed with me that it is _NOT_ a 51% location, and that the signs are posted improperly.

Sad to know that my complaint had absolutely no effect on them being posted, however, if they are still there.

If you believe that a 51% sign is posted incorrectly, there are a few things you can do:
1. Check the Actual PAPER License hanging on the wall
-- By law it has to be readable by the public. If you can't read it, eg, if it's behind the bar or something, ASK TO SEE IT. They CANNOT Say no, by law.
-- The Paper License, about halfway down, says either "SIGN = BLUE" or "SIGN = RED". Blue means it is NOT a 51% Location, Red means it IS.
--- The COLOR of the paper the license is printed on itself means nothing either way. it is the TEXT ON THE LICENSE that you have to READ. (Lots of people somehow mix this up)
2. Call the TABC and ASK about the location. They should be able to tell you over the phone whether it is, or is not.
3. IF they have the wrong signs posted, OR Refuse to let you see the licence, REPORT THEM TO THE TABC. They are BREAKING THE LAW by posting the wrong signs, or refusing to let you see the licence.

[Fawkes]

The 51% rule does indeed apply in WA. There just isn't a sign for it. It is however spelled out in the RCW (Revised Code of Washington) that it is a violation to carry in a bar, or bar area of a restaurant. If this guy didn't actually make it inside of the bar, that was his loop hole, and the only reason he isn't in a cell in Walla Walla.

The problem as I see it is that to receive a WA CCW, one only needs to go to their local po-po, fill out the application, get finger printed, and pay the application fee. In about 30 days it shows up in the mail. I know many individuals that don't know the rules of the road when it comes to concealed carry.

[seamusTX]

Thanks for the info.

The guy was charged with felony aggravated assault. Maybe the prosecutors thought that trying to prove a charge of illegal carrying in the bar would just complicate things.

Most of the time they prosecute the worst violation and save the other possible offenses for plea bargains.

- Jim

[Fawkes]

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

[sooeey2u]

From what I remember you can't carry in a bar in Washington. However you can carry in a bar in Idaho but you can't drink while carrying. No reason the designated driver should be unarmed.

And in Oregon you can OC without a license and drink in a bar, tavern, restaurant etc or you can OC or CC with a license and drink in a bar, etc but it is against the law to be legally intoxicated.

Oh some many states with so many different sets of rules.....hard to keep up with esp since they may change like Arizona recently.