Getting into the world of ARs

[Vic]

But in the end, unless you're planning on stocking a lot of 5.56 yourself, I think it is very poor planning to count on supplies you THINK you'll be able to scavenge, buy, or steal in the end. Anything you want to have in a bad situation, you honestly need to already own.

Again, this is all just one guys opinion.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. However, there is a limit to what one can do, no matter what. For example, imagine for a minute that they stopped making cars. Parts from certain very common vehicles would be much easier to come by than others. It would be easier to get a part for a Ford F-150 than it would be to get the same part for a Honda Ridgeline. It is easier to get something when there are more of that thing.

[Carry-a-Kimber]

The Bushmaster E2S A2 Target has all the features you are looking for and they can be had for $800ish. Just thought I would suggest a rifle that fits the bill rather than try to change your mind.

[The Annoyed Man]

But in the end, unless you're planning on stocking a lot of 5.56 yourself, I think it is very poor planning to count on supplies you THINK you'll be able to scavenge, buy, or steal in the end. Anything you want to have in a bad situation, you honestly need to already own.

Again, this is all just one guys opinion.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. However, there is a limit to what one can do, no matter what. For example, imagine for a minute that they stopped making cars. Parts from certain very common vehicles would be much easier to come by than others. It would be easier to get a part for a Ford F-150 than it would be to get the same part for a Honda Ridgeline. It is easier to get something when there are more of that thing.

But, in TEOTWAWKI, they won't be making parts for an F150 either. They'll be coming from existing stocks, and then from junked cars. And when all the parts off of junkers are gone.....they'll be gone. You can at least reload your own ammo. However, 74novaman is right. Don't count on stockpiles being available then, because they will have all been "privatized" by those with the quickest access to them. Stockpile now. Stockpile plenty. Pretty much any time I buy 5.56 ammo, I always buy at least a couple of more boxes than I'm going to need for that day's shooting, and I occasionally buy a bulk box. For now, I buy loaded 5.56 ammo, and save the spent brass. To date, the only thing in that caliber (actually .223) that I've been reloading is match grade loads. At some point I'll load bulk ammo too.

My son wants to get himself a 4x4, and he has the notion that his future in-laws' TEOTWAWKI preparations (yes, they are preparers) are good because they involve eventually decamping the entire clan to an existing sanctuary in the Colorado Rockies via a rallying point in Abilene. I pointed out to him that this is a nearly 1,000 mile journey, by a largish group of people, with lots of stores on hand. They'll never make it.....not just because they'll be a target for every group of bandits and "toll-collectors" along the way, but because there will be no more commercially available gasoline. In TEOTWAWKI, those with the gasoline are going to keep it for their local economies, and sell it dearly. No gasoline stockpiles. No ammo stockpiles. No food stockpiles. No medicine stockpiles. None of that.

Far better to plan for that reality and stockpile now what you think you're going to need then, and actually have it on hand when it is needed. And who knows? Maybe you'll be lucky and have access to more later....

....or, you could just give up and enjoy your new rifle and not worry about it too much. I fall somewhere in between the two extremes.

[TX Rancher]

But in the end, unless you're planning on stocking a lot of 5.56 yourself, I think it is very poor planning to count on supplies you THINK you'll be able to scavenge, buy, or steal in the end. Anything you want to have in a bad situation, you honestly need to already own.

I couldn't agree more...

If the plan is for National Guard, DPS, Local LEO, etc to share ammo and parts with you, I suspect you will be disappointed. Past incidents have not shown a willingness of those in charge to share those items with the general population.

On the subject of CQB, I would put forth that you are much more likely to enter into engagements at close range rather than long range. Most bad guys probably won't be engaging you from 200 yards out. They're more likely to wait until they are very close where the odds are more in their favor.

Looking at Katrina or the Los Angeles riots most of the issues honest folks ran into would be classified as CQB.

Now if we're talking the end of civilization, all bets are off...

As for depending on a pistol if it's CQB, I agree with Clint Smith "A pistol is what you use to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have left behind!". The stopping power of a rifle is just stomp down better than a pistol...holds more rounds...more intimidating (possibly avoid the shootout in the first place)....and with the proper ammo choice it can be relatively barrier blind.

[Vic]

I'm not trying to suggest that stockpiling isn't necessary or prudent. I'm saying that the possibility exists that any stockpile may not be adequate for every eventuality.

Even if I have 10,000 rounds vacuum-sealed and set aside for emergency only use, there may come a time when:

1. I need to share it (mutual defense)
2. I have used a significant portion of it for some reason, whether prudently over a long period, or suddenly in response to some event, and now need to acquire more if at all possible
3. Been forced to trade/barter with it for some other critical (very critical) need

...or something like that. I stock some amount of ammo for all the weapons I own. I do that currently and will be no different when I add an additional caliber. I stock as much as I can, given the budget and space I have available.

What if society completely collapses, as in the scenario some of you are painting? Any stockpile will get at least dented. Wouldn't you be on the lookout for more ammo if possible? My desire for this rifle stems from the belief that, in rifle ammo above .22 cal, 5.56/.223 will be the most likely ammo to be found, above and beyond any stockpiles I may already have access to.

What if society DOESN'T completely collapse? I think this is the FAR more plausible scenario. I didn't want to type all this out, so here is the shortest possible description of what I am planning for, while omitting lots of details that have not been overlooked, just not typed out because, as I mentioned, I'm not writing a book:

Some series of events transpires that disrupts the status quo. This could be anything from natural disaster to economic collapse to civil war, but I won't try to predict what it might be. Some assumptions don't change much FOR ME PERSONALLY regardless. One of those assumptions is that I'm not leaving unless the most extreme conditions occur. Short of that, I'm 'bugging in'. For me personally, that makes the most sense, while for others in different circumstances, that would not be their choice.

Now, for the real polarizing assumptions I personally have, feel free to disagree, but I feel like there is some merit to these assumptions:

1. Normalcy bias. People want things to stay the same. They do not want things to radically change, and they will do things to 'hold it together' and work toward making things 'like they were before'. I do not believe MOST people (don't skip the word 'most') will instantaneously devolve into roving Mad Max gangs. They will go to work for as long as makes sense, they will do most things normally for as long as possible. What is possible to keep doing and how long to do those things will change based on what the trigger event is, but the desire (or habit) for most people to carry on as normally as possible will remain. People do this because they don't know what else to do.

2. Along those lines, businesses do not want anything to change. Wal-mart doesn't want to close its stores, hardware and grocery stores don't want to shut their doors, the trucks don't want to stop running, and the police and sheriff's deputies don't want to stop enforcing the law. All of these will hold on as long as possible in the closest degree to what is normal. I'm not saying the police will protect me (otherwise, why buy a rifle?) or that every comfort will be available (otherwise, why prepare?), I'm just saying that I don't think society turns off like a light switch. Things will be as normal as possible for as long as possible, while acknowledging the many shades of grey between 'possible' and 'no longer possible'.

3. If it goes on long enough, and the trucks do stop running and the stores do close down, and it is every group for themselves, I don't have any illusions. I have no combat training, no survival training, no real advantages over any other person, except that I'm in reasonable shape (compared to an average sample), I am actively trying to be self-reliant, and I hope I can prepare for some things before they happen. I have access to more than one water source, purification implements, some food and medicine, and have some means to at least attempt to defend it if necessary. There's nothing special about that, particularly here since that's the essence of the mindset that would compel someone to carry a concealed handgun in the first place. In any case, if the situation lasted long enough, and if I managed to survive for that period of time, if there were to be some rifle ammo outside of any stockpile I'd have access to, whether found in some abandoned house or vehicle, a tractor trailer or railcar, impromptu marketplace, or on a corpse, there's a better than even chance that this found ammo could be 5.56 NATO or .223, at least more likely that than 7.62x39.

4. If there's hope of things getting beyond the trigger events, and the trucks start rolling again, and the stores open their doors once more, whether weeks or years have elapsed, I'd bet the pallets would be more likely to contain 5.56/.223 than any other rifle cartridge short of .22

So, to me, it's all about the odds. I will stockpile 5.56/.223 just like I stockpile for the firearms I already have. I hope I'll never need the stockpiles at all, or if I do, that I have more than enough. But if I don't have enough, I'll need to at least make some sort of effort to get more. A part of that effort is to play the odds and need the thing that is more plentiful to begin with. TAM, I agree about the 'Ford won't be making any more F-150 parts' statement, and that's precisely my point with that example. Even if there are no new parts to be had, it will still be easier to get a common part than a comparatively less common one. If you were to go into any 25 buildings (houses, stores, municipal buildings, etc.) in an average American community and collect all the ammo that is possible to use in a rifle, what would you say the most likely calibers you might find would be? In my own completely baseless imagining of this outcome, I'd say:

1. .22LR
2. 9mm and .38 (if we're including pistol caliber carbines)
3. .223/5.56 NATO

Then your other common hunting and defense calibers in some order after these. The point remains that I believe 5.56/.223 will remain more common than others. While I'm not saying it will always be 'easy', it will probably be 'less impossible' than some others. Given what I have access to in my safe right this minute, I'd rather be combing the landscape trying to root up 5.56/.223 than scavenging for .30-40 Krag.

[ddurkof]

Interesting conversation. But.... Just sticking to weapons the best would be the AK-47 and any 9 mm pistol that is battle proven. Why? Where in the current world is there someplace that is "The end of the world as we know it?" And what do they do there to survive? The closest I can think of is Afghanistan. What do they do there to survive. Raise grains and herd goats while carrying AK-47s and some combloc pistols. They have tribes that they associate with that elders run. This is what the end of the world would look like, if it was truly the end of the world.

But most likely our scenarios are more like Ike and Katrina, which results in the loss of power infrastructure for a few days to a couple of months leading to shortages of staples. The idea of gangs running rampant through the streets are rather Hollywood, and I do mean Hollywood and other left leaning areas of the country, but the odds of a collapse that is nationwide and not regional is highly unlikely.

So since it does say "Texas" at the top of the page and I have lived through Ike and several other hurricanes and a few floods prior to Ike I would suggest that the basics of food, water and medicine are more important that 10K rounds of ammunition. If you are in a battle where you are going to expend 10K of any ammo, you are most likely done for unless you have 25 to 100 people on your side who know how to lay down suppressive fire while your group moves in flanking maneuvers to kill the bad guys.

You may have looters, but I didn't experience any thefts during Ike so I can't rank that threat real high, because in Texas many, if not most people are armed. Looters work much better in an area like LA where the local and state authorities have made it hard for "Law Abiding" people to obtain weapons. Even during the Rodney King Riots, the mere presence of the Koren store owners on the roofs with weapons, kept the looters at bay. Few shots were fired.

So to the purist end of the world person, who are better off knowing how to raise goats than having the weaponry to start a civil war in a third world country. If you are going to have a weapon, get a AK-47. It is being build in the Durra Pakistan by guys with coal forges, hammers and anvils. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the world you will always be able to get an AK-47 and ammunition to feed it. They don't break and with practice they are accurate to a couple of hundred yards.

Our worst case scenario is the daily life in the tribal areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan. "Got Goat?"

[XinTX]

I've been thinking about a TEOTWAWKI scenario as well. And I've been considering an AR platform as well. But mostly because the MUCH better half is tiny (not quite 4' - 11" and a slight build even for that stature) and can't handle high recoil. And the AR has good power without a lot of recoil. The AK may be a much more rugged platform, but not so sure she could comfortably shoot the AK enough in practice to become proficient with it. With an AR I think she could. I do think the AK is a better TEOTWAWKI weapon, I just don't think it would work for us. Besides, if the mess never does hit the fan, I think she might like shooting an AR. An AK, not so much. TEOTWAWKI might happen, but range time will happen.

[gigag04]

I think if building the 18" AR would be a nice choice.

[Steve133]

Not to derail things too much further, but:

Interesting conversation. But.... Just sticking to weapons the best would be the AK-47 and any 9 mm pistol that is battle proven. Why? Where in the current world is there someplace that is "The end of the world as we know it?" And what do they do there to survive? The closest I can think of is Afghanistan. What do they do there to survive. Raise grains and herd goats while carrying AK-47s and some combloc pistols. They have tribes that they associate with that elders run. This is what the end of the world would look like, if it was truly the end of the world.

This is an excellent point. From what I can tell, the AK and AR have fairly different sets of strengths and weaknesses. This makes an overall comparison between the two difficult; the question of "which one's better?" always needs to be answered with "for what?" But I think most people would agree that in terms of reliability under harsh conditions with little or no maintenance, the AK comes out ahead.

However, I think that you would run into some issues with ammo availability with an AK. I might be completely wrong here, but it seems like at least part of the reason why there are so many Com Bloc weapons in Afghanistan is that there was an armed Soviet presence there for years and years, to say nothing about the general proliferation of the AK through the third world. I would guess that a lot of people there use them because they're available, not because of any particular preference for the design or anything (of course, then you get into the whole chicken/egg discussion of AKs only being fielded there in the first place because of reliability, but that's neither here nor there).

Even with the domestic popularity of the AK platform among civilians, it doesn't seem to me to be as ubiquitous as the AR. It's been a while since I've had occasion to look for it, but 7.62x39 was getting hard to find for a while, and I assume that this is still the case. In terms of both stockpiling ahead of time (obviously the preferred option) and, God forbid, having to scavenge ammunition after some sort of major cataclysm, 5.56 is probably going to be cheaper and/or easier to find. If it really hits the fan, I'd feel better with a weapon that could accept the ammunition and magazines as the ones used by whatever forces of law and order are likely to have been deployed.

I feel sort of sheepish about it sometimes, but I have to admit that I was paranoid enough and put enough thought into this to make sure that I got something that would accept NATO STANAG magazines when I went shopping for an EBR a while back....