Getting into the world of ARs

[Vic]

I'm considering getting an AR.

I say "considering" because I'm not totally sold on the idea just yet, but it seems like the best choice that I'm aware of. I want this rifle for a TEOTWAWKI scenario. It has easily-obtained parts and ammo.

My current rifle that holds this role is an SKS. I don't have any problems with the SKS at all, I'm just looking to have another rifle that shoots another very common cartridge.

At first, I thought I'd just buy a complete rifle. When I started looking at all the options and configurations, the style that most appeals to me is a rather plain A2. I have no interest in battery-powered optics of any kind and only a limited interest in a basic scope. With that in mind, I think I want an A2-style with these options:

20-inch chrome-lined barrel
A2 front sight
Carrying handle (either fixed or removable)
Fixed A2 buttstock with storage compartment for cleaning kit

I have not had much luck finding a complete rifle that fits these specifications (much to my surprise). It seems that the most popular complete rifles are all 16-inch barrels with collapsible buttstock.

I don't have any gunsmithing experience and have no gunsmithing tools, so I don't want to build from a parts kit, but joining a complete lower to a complete upper is something even I can manage. Since I cannot find a complete rifle that is exactly what I want (without either coming with parts I don't want or needing extra parts), I've been looking for complete lowers and complete uppers.

Stag Arms has both a complete lower (A2 Complete Lower for $300) and a complete upper (Model 4H for $560) that fits my needs as far as I can tell. Stag Arms offers the "Plus Package" on many of their rifles that includes:

- 4150 barrel steel chrome lined
- 1/7 Twist rifling
- M4 feed ramps
- Individually MP & HP tested and marked Bolt & Barrel
- M-16 Bolt Carrier
- Heavy (H) buffer assembly
- One extra 30rd USGI Magazines (two total)*

However, this Plus Package is not available on the 20-inch model. The 4H Complete Upper (and the Model 4 complete rifle) say they have a chrome moly barrel, but it doesn't say that it is chrome-lined. It also has a 1:9 twist and not the 1:7 that the Plus Package could provide, if it were available on the 20-inch model. I plan to use any type of ammo I can get, including the heavy grains, but not exclusively. Does it matter what the twist is in that case?

Some other options I have looked at:

1. I hear lots of good things about the S&W M&P 15, but I cannot find one with an A2 configuration. I don't want an adjustable stock or a 16-inch barrel. Bud's has a S&W complete lower for $308, but it has an adjustable stock. It doesn't seem like a good use of money to buy that lower and then need to buy a new stock, even though the S&W has a good reputation.

2. CMMG has a 20-inch complete upper that states it has a chrome-lined barrel/chamber and a 1:7 twist. It is only $15 more than the Stag Arms complete upper. Maybe I should get the CMMG complete upper and the Stag Arms complete lower. CMMG doesn't seem to offer a complete lower with an A2 buttstock, and their complete government-profile rifle has an A1 buttstock, so CMMG doesn't have either a complete lower or an entire rifle that I want. I'd have to get the upper and mate it with a different lower.

3. Bravo Company Mfg. seems to make good stuff, but they are not taking orders on new rifles or lowers right now.

4. DoubleStar seems to get good reviews, but their website is terrible. The list prices seem to be good, but I guess you have to order by phone. They claim to have lots of options, but don't list what they are...

So, from this rambling dialogue, you can tell I don't know what I'm doing. I want a basic A2-style rifle that is durable and has quality parts. What is the best way to go about getting this?

[Vic]

I forgot to add:

My idea of TEOTWAWKI is NOT a Mad Max world. It is more a scenario where "the trucks stop running" so that basic necessities are hard to come by. I have started stocking food and water and some other basics. I've lived through several hurricanes, so I like to think I have at least a taste of what that might be like.

My thoughts on this rifle are that it needs to be one that uses easily obtained ammo that won't break the bank to stockpile. Like I mentioned, I have an SKS and a couple of "spam cans" of 7.62x39. I also have 4 rifles in .22 and some ammo for those. I want an additional rifle that uses a different, but still easily obtainable cartridge type. I assume 5.56 NATO is the correct choice for easy availability and cost considerations.

If there are other rifles and cartridge types I am overlooking, please feel free to throw those out there.

[A-R]

I'm no AR expert and certainly not a gunsmith, but I have built from a stripped lower using the exact parts I wanted and attached it to a pre-built upper. It's not that difficult at all and there are very easy-to-follow directions at web sites like AR15.com

Seems the upper build - specifically attaching barrel to upper receiver - is the "most difficult" part of a complete build (thus why I avoided it).

Also, make sure you want the fixed front sight if you think you might install a "basic scope" - YMMV but I had difficulty with standard rifle scopes (e.g. a 3-9x40 Bushnell) with the front sight post - while you can see "through" or "around" this giant hunk of metal (fixed sight) in your field of vision I still think your best bet if you plan to run such an optic is a folding front sight.

Lastly, make sure you know WHY you want a 1/7 twist barrel. I believe 1/7 is the standard for US military now so they can accurately fire/stabilize heavier grain bullets (up to 77 grains). But 1/7 twist will not work well with anything lighter than 55 grains, and in my experience shooting 1/7, 1/8, and 1/9 twist barrels the 1/7 twist even leaves a bit to be desired in terms of absolute accuracy with 55-grain bullets (which are the most prevalent available ammo for consumers - supplied at every Wal Mart, Academy, etc). 1/7 will certainly shoot 55-grain bullets with good minute of COM or minute of bad guy accuracy, but don't necessarily expect 1-inch groups at 100 yards. 1/9 shoots 55-grain very well, but can have some stabilization issues with bullet weights in the 69-77 range. 1/8 is a good compromise. My 1/8 barrel (a 16-inch Sabre Defense stainless fluted stainless) can shoot bulk American Eagle 55-grain 1 MOA or less and also make groups approximately 1 MOA with 69 and even 77 depending on bullet design etc.

Point is, be sure you get the twist rate that will best fit the ammo you think you'll have/stock or be able to acquire when you need it. Any of the three will likely be fine, just depends on your tolerance for accuracy. But 1/7 seems to be an "upcharge" item with some makers.

[TX Rancher]

Work out in your mind the scenarios where you feel you would use this weapon. Pay particular attention to distances and whether there would be a need for some level of concealment.

If it's primarily a defensive weapon, I would suspicion that the majority of shots would be between contact distance and 100 yards. Given that distance, it's questionable you need a 20 in barrel. If we make an assumption your defensive AO will also include things like your house, garage, and other buildings, the 20in would be a disadvantage due to it's length in semi-confined areas.

The same discussion could apply to the stock. Inside a confined space (hallway, small room, room with furniture, etc) a folding stock is generally considered to be an asset. A good combination in this environment is a 14.5in barrel with a pinned FH/Brake (makes it legal). This will give you a maneuverable long gun with acceptable accuracy out past 100 yards. There are several manufacturers out there that have weapons with 1MOA when feed quality ammo.

Also, at those distances, against man sized targets, iron sights will work just fine. But keep in mind red dot sights are much faster to bring on target for most users, and the Aimpoints last for years on a single battery.

If your scenario is defensive, I would recommend you not go with magnification. If you end up in a CQB situation, the magnification is a disadvantage and it will preclude using your iron sights unless the scope is on a riser. But even with a riser, your time to acquire your target is impacted since you are effectively looking down a tunnel...situational awareness also takes a hit which can be very bad in a CQB situation.

If the intent is to have a rifle to put meat on the table, and the SKS is the defensive weapon, then opt for a decent bolt gun and maybe change caliber to something like 308.

Anyway, my suggestion is to take a close look at the intended usage and then ask very specific questions. That will give you a much better chance at ending up with the right weapon in the end.

[glbedd53]

Both my ARs are 16" barrels, one is a Colt Mod 6731 and the other is a HGW. With the right ammo in 55gr. I have shot 100 yd 3 shot groups that I could cover with a penny with both guns. Not sure why you want a 20" but the AR people I asked told me that barrel length has more to do with velocity than accuracy, at least between 16" and 20".

[paulhailes]

From what I understand the 20" barrel is better for long distance shots, that you most likely wont be making with those iron sights. If you really want the 20" then you might look into a 1-4 mil dot scope and collapsable sights.

[Vic]

The main idea that led me to the AR is that the rifle is so common that parts and ammo would likely be available even in a rough scenario.

As far as wanting the 20", I'm not dead-set on it. I initially gravitated to it because as far as I understand, the M-16 was designed with a 20" barrel. I assume they had a good reason for that in a combat environment. I hope I never have to engage in CQB or clearing a house since I have no training whatsoever. I'd likely resort to a handgun in that case (but let's not debate the wisdom of that).

My mental walkthrough of this scenario involved mostly factors such as needing the rifle to be durable because parts (for any gun) would not be too easy to come by. The .223 and 5.56 NATO are so common, ammo would likely be available in some quantity, even if most other cartridge supplied have dried up. Lots of people have rifles in this caliber, possibly more than any other outside of .22 rifles.

This all sounds sort of ridiculous, but I still don't dismiss it.

In any case, I'm looking at other AR options, so I don't want it to sound like I'm resolved to any of my current choices. Keep em' coming!

[texasmusic]

I'm in the process of building a 20" government profile AR in my thread "new project". As far as the 20" rifle, I can't comment with experience. As far as getting into AR's I can: Go for it! I have one AR and it's a RRA carbine. It has been flawless and accurate. low recoil, good penetration, "cheap" ammo. what else could you ask for? Check out Rock river's guns, I think they have one in that configuration.

Buy a rifle or build it from a complete upper and lower. For me, building it from diagrams and par numbers aint gonna happen. I have to have something solid in front of me or at least have tinkered with it before. I pick things up quickly and I'm very mechanically inclined but pictures just don't do it for me.

I've only been an AR guy for less than a year, but it's a great gun type to get into. The parts interchangeability and variety... very nice. Everything's built to mil spec standards so It's all going to work.

[74novaman]

If its a TEOTWASKI scenario, go for an AK instead.

the 2 big reasons
You can opt for a folding stock, thus a more discrete package, and also usable in a vehicle.
More reliable

Saigas come in .223, fulfilling your "different" caliber requirement. It also means you can get a Saiga in 7.62x39 later for the ammo you already have, and then you have 2 different calibers but the same manual of arms for both weapons.

My .02

[JeepGuy79]

stay with di, the ar is not a good host for a piston system. I have had multiple issues with them including the mega expensive barret rec7. AK is more my thing, but mostly cause It never fails and I have tons of AP for it. stuff hits the fan Ill grab it.

[glbedd53]

I can't argue with the AK. Mine is Chinese and it has been perfect, and accurate. Easy to take apart and clean. That Russian was a genius.

[Vic]

I already have a rifle that uses 7.62x39. I want one that uses 5.56 NATO in case 7.62x39 becomes scarce.

It is my belief that 5.56 NATO and/or .223 will be plentiful in the USA for decades to come. Yes, there is a lot of 7.62x39, but not in quantities that compare to those of 5.56 NATO/.223

I realize that a lot of the factors I am basing this decision on are scenario-based. Imagining a scenario is a lot like trying to predict the future, and no prediction will be 100% accurate (or probably much more than 50% accurate). I deliberately try to keep my scenario vague because I'm not writing a book; instead, I'm trying to prepare for situations I believe might plausibly occur, if even for a relatively short period of time.

My scenario is a hybrid of my experiences with post-hurricane local conditions (most stores and other resources are not open, you are basically on your own) and some other conditions that have occurred in recent times, but that I have not personally experienced (post-Katrina neighborhoods that had to fend off looters). Conditions like this, as far as I know, tend to last from a few days to a few weeks, but what if they stretched longer? I'm stocking water, food, and medicine, and trying to think about defense. I'm considering thinks like having to share ammo supplies so that I'm not trying to set up a one-person perimeter (impossible anyway) and possibly having to repair/replace parts on firearms. This gets into all sorts of things that aren't pertinent to this thread, but the point is that it will probably be harder to get resupplied with 7.62x39 than it would with 5.56 NATO and/or .223, even considering things like the fact that more people own 5.56 NATO and/or .223 rifles than do 7.62x39 and they would want to hoard that ammo and be competition to get it. On the other hand, if there were occasional Wal-Mart trucks, for example, the likelihood of it carrying 5.56 NATO and/or .223 is greater than the alternative.

Bottom line, a rifle chambered in 5.56 NATO is what I'm looking for. As I stated before, it doesn't necessarily have to be an AR, but I'd prefer it to NOT be an uncommon rifle. The Saiga .223 (I'm assuming it is actually 5.56 NATO?) is an interesting idea, but how easy would it be to get parts (including magazines) in this hypothetical environment?

[The Annoyed Man]

Here you go: http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm? ... ory_id=225

[JeepGuy79]

I would not buy a saiga in 223 myself. Saiga makes great stuff (it comes from izmash ind where kalashnikov actually "works" and the thought of buying something he may have touched is cool to me, but I am a dork) but the AK is not as accurate as the AR platform and mags are not going to everywhere like AK and AR will. I would consider an AK74 over an AK in 223 even though rifles like the galil are very nice and reliable they are just not as accurate or "buildable" as an AR. I would really consider building your AR the way you want. I have built many for myself and friends and all run perfect. Mags are cheap and in a situation you will likely find them on the ground. Go with DI system not piston and keep it reasonably clean and it will run like a champ. If you are on a tight budget look at spikes tactical for quality parts at cheap prices. rock river and noveske have been excellent for me if you have a little more cash to blow. good luck and show us what you get!

[74novaman]

Bottom line, a rifle chambered in 5.56 NATO is what I'm looking for. As I stated before, it doesn't necessarily have to be an AR, but I'd prefer it to NOT be an uncommon rifle. The Saiga .223 (I'm assuming it is actually 5.56 NATO?) is an interesting idea, but how easy would it be to get parts (including magazines) in this hypothetical environment?

Yes, the Saiga can shoot 5.56 and .223. As for parts and magazines being secured in an end of the world scenario, you shouldn't count on being able to procure any spare anything after the fact. You want it for then, you buy it and stack it deep now, no matter what rifle or caliber you're talking about.

Again, if you're thinking end of the world, you want something very reliable that you're very comfortable shooting. This is why I recommended a Saiga in 5.56, because you can later buy another Saiga in 7.62x39 (heck, sell your SKS to fund an AK upgrade) for your already existing ammo stock. That way, you have the exact same platform, with the same manual of arms, and some parts will even be swappable between the two rifles for the two calibers...how cool is that?

But in the end, unless you're planning on stocking a lot of 5.56 yourself, I think it is very poor planning to count on supplies you THINK you'll be able to scavenge, buy, or steal in the end. Anything you want to have in a bad situation, you honestly need to already own.

Again, this is all just one guys opinion.