Open Shotgun Carry in Austin

[ifanyonecan]

I really like the Maverick 88, thanks for that suggestion. The 8-shot security model is great.

I would really like something similar to that. Does anyone have experience with pistol-grips with shoulder stocks? I like that look, but I don't know whether it is practical.

Although looks aren't important, and for purposes of this protest it would likely be better to have a wooden stock and pump rather than black (Although black would match my suit better. I suppose I could wear my tan suit and it would look nice, too.)

I've received a PM from a member here in which he told of good experiences he'd had from the police by telling them he was doing a photo shoot. He proposed I tell the police such and tell the media I am doing an open-carry protest. Anyone have thoughts on this? I personally think it's brilliant, since I will have someone there with a camera, and it gives me a more solid purpose to be there in their eyes.

[Skiprr]

I agree about the restraint. Good thinking.

I'd hate to see you get a conviction that would delay you from getting your CHL.

I don't think it would delay me. Isn't it Class A Misdemeanors and above?

Pardon my being blunt, but this a clear indication that you haven't studied the applicable laws and really, truly don't understand all the possible ramifications. You cannot apply for a CHL within five years from the date of conviction of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor, or equivalent offense. A conviction under § 42.01(a)(8) would be a Class B.

We armchair quarterbacks can opine all day that walking down a street in urban Austin with a shotgun slung over one's shoulder does not constitute the display of "a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm," but I'll bet ya a hundred bucks that anyone who says that has never been charged for same and subsequently had the case dismissed. I can also bet what type of feedback you'll get from APD or the city manager about the idea should you ask them.

IMHO, there are far better ways to support 2A than making a test case of yourself. Instead, drive up to Mesquite (east Dallas) this weekend and attend the annual meeting of the Texas State Rifle Association. Meet and network with the folks who are the leaders in RKBA in Texas. Governor Perry will be speaking Saturday.

If you want to make a difference, take a couple of days to come learn, firsthand, what efforts are underway. And then find ways to volunteer to help the initiatives that really have a chance at success.

[ifanyonecan]

I agree about the restraint. Good thinking.

I'd hate to see you get a conviction that would delay you from getting your CHL.

I don't think it would delay me. Isn't it Class A Misdemeanors and above?

Pardon my being blunt, but this a clear indication that you haven't studied the applicable laws and really, truly don't understand all the possible ramifications. You cannot apply for a CHL within five years from the date of conviction of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor, or equivalent offense. A conviction under § 42.01(a)(8) would be a Class B.

We armchair quarterbacks can opine all day that walking down a street in urban Austin with a shotgun slung over one's shoulder does not constitute the display of "a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm," but I'll bet ya a hundred bucks that anyone who says that has never been charged for same and subsequently had the case dismissed. I can also bet what type of feedback you'll get from APD or the city manager about the idea should you ask them.

IMHO, there are far better ways to support 2A than making a test case of yourself. Instead, drive up to Mesquite (east Dallas) this weekend and attend the annual meeting of the Texas State Rifle Association. Meet and network with the folks who are the leaders in RKBA in Texas. Governor Perry will be speaking Saturday.

If you want to make a difference, take a couple of days to come learn, firsthand, what efforts are underway. And then find ways to volunteer to help the initiatives that really have a chance at success.

What I said about Class A Misdemeanors was a question; I was asking whether that was correct. I don't plan to do this unprepared or unresearched, which is why I'm posting on this forum. Nevertheless, thank you for answering my question. The laws and interpretations were chiefly what I wanted from this thread.

As for the "armchair quarterbacks" paragraph: Do you happen to know of any previous rulings on this? Have any courts defined what it takes to "intentionally or knowingly display a firearm ... in a manner calculated to alarm"? I am "intentionally" and "knowingly" leaving my house with a weapon, and since it's reasonable for anyone to assume I'd know some people would be alarmed, a prosecutor could argue I was intending to alarm others for "shock factor" in order to get my message across. Also, I will be getting feedback from APD; it's been said several times already that I will contact them prior to doing this.

Also, what's to test? Many other states with similarly-worded laws about causing alarm have citizens that actively exercise their OC rights. A test case would be a CHL-holder going into an Austin city building that has the 30.05 signs (discussed earlier in the thread), since that is a law that conflicts with the state. They are testing a law's validity by breaking it. By obeying the law, I am simply demonstrating how to OC within the regulations set forth by the legislature.

By actually going out and doing this, I will no longer be an opining armchair-quarterback as you said. I'm willing to throw myself out there and possibly face arrest or prosecution for this. As a single, young student, I have no dependents that can be impacted, I can do this on a Friday, so I won't miss any classes should I be arrested and held, I have free (well, tuition-funded) representation from the school on this matter, and I'm passionate on the subject at hand. I am in a great situation to be a "test case", if you would like to call it that.

However, dressing nice and being polite, I don't expect to be immediately tackled by police or screamed at. They will most likely come talk to me, and I will show them the laws and explain I am within my rights. Besides, I will be contacting them beforehand, so they will know about it. And if they say I cannot do this, I won't for now; rather, I will be contacting the chief of police (perhaps through a lawyer) explaining that the department should be educated on the law. After hearing back from him, if he agrees I will proceed; if he disagrees, I will continue trying to educate the capitol's officers on the laws that were made in the middle of their city.

Not in response to your quote:
The question still stands whether the Gun Free School Zones Act's 1000' rule applies to universities.

[Skiprr]

They will most likely come talk to me, and I will show them the laws and explain I am within my rights.

What, specifically, will you show them?


And you didn't mention my invitation to Dallas. The timing seems perfect. If you are a single student with no dependents and enough money to risk bail-bond, then spend a little gas money and come to Dallas for the TSRA annual meeting and conference February 26 through 28.

If you're passionate about the subject, what better way to learn of initiatives underway and to meet and network with other active RKBA defenders statewide? These are the people who will be leading the fight for campus-carry legislation in 2011.

[ifanyonecan]

They will most likely come talk to me, and I will show them the laws and explain I am within my rights.

What, specifically, will you show them?


And you didn't mention my invitation to Dallas. The timing seems perfect. If you are a single student with no dependents and enough money to risk bail-bond, then spend a little gas money and come to Dallas for the TSRA annual meeting and conference February 26 through 28.

If you're passionate about the subject, what better way to learn of initiatives underway and to meet and network with other active RKBA defenders statewide? These are the people who will be leading the fight for campus-carry legislation in 2011.

I'm sorry, I knew I was missing some part of your post in my response.

This weekend I may have plans, it depends on whether or not my brother finds other people to help him move. Do you have a link so I can check it out? I would definitely be interested in attending and perhaps bringing my brother and/or father.

As for what I will show them, I will have a sheet of paper with the applicable laws, in decreasing jurisdiction size, from the 2nd Amendment to the Texas Constitution to the Texas Penal Codes sections on long gun OC to the Austin City Ordinances on gun possession within city limits. Also, I may need the federal gun-free zones act if it applies. I'll be compiling a list and posting on here before doing my walk. I still have some research to do. Unanswered questions are whether I need to be 1000' away from UT property, what defines a public disturbance/nuisance or disturbing the peace, and whether there are any previous court rulings in Texas on § 42.01(a)(8). All laws and rulings pertaining to those issues will also be included.

[chabouk]

But, what you are proposing is not illegal. Unless you're carrying "in a manner calculated to cause alarm", i.e., you intend to alarm people, you're not in violation.

So somebody can call the cops and say they saw him, claim it causes them great fear, and the end result will be ?

The law says "calculated to cause", not "causes, whether warranted or not".

[frazzled]

You are on the internet asking real legal questions. This is "not prudent" as you are not consulting with bonafide criminal defense counsel versed in this topic. If you do this you will need criminal defense counsel, and a good bail bondsman. You are going to be arrested for, at minimum, some sort of disturbing the peace violation. Whether or not they can prove it is not relevant. You will be held and get to have the full fun of the jailhouse. Likely you will be arrested for several charges, because what you're expressing to do is not a bar fight, but significantly more.

Legal fees are not cheap. If they decide to make an example of you it will cost you several thousand dollars to defend yourself and get this pled down to misdemeanor stupidity. You're also explosing yourself to the chance the responding LEO's blow you away. After all, you're wandering around downtown Austin with a shotgun. Any conceptions you have about rights are all well and good, but its not going to go good for you because after all, you're wandering around downtown Austin with a shotgun. If you start espousing "your rights" post IRS building attack, you might viewed as less than sane and the thread level raised a further notch with commensurate actions on their part. Do you really want to be a party, the er receieving end of it anyway, of a situation gone bad and (later) justified shooting by the LEOs? To them you're a person wandering around downtown Austin with a shotgun.

[marksiwel]

You are on the internet asking real legal questions. This is "not prudent" as you are not consulting with bonafide criminal defense counsel versed in this topic. If you do this you will need criminal defense counsel, and a good bail bondsman. You are going to be arrested for, at minimum, some sort of disturbing the peace violation. Whether or not they can prove it is not relevant. You will be held and get to have the full fun of the jailhouse. Likely you will be arrested for several charges, because what you're expressing to do is not a bar fight, but significantly more.

Legal fees are not cheap. If they decide to make an example of you it will cost you several thousand dollars to defend yourself and get this pled down to misdemeanor stupidity. You're also explosing yourself to the chance the responding LEO's blow you away. After all, you're wandering around downtown Austin with a shotgun. Any conceptions you have about rights are all well and good, but its not going to go good for you because after all, you're wandering around downtown Austin with a shotgun. If you start espousing "your rights" post IRS building attack, you might viewed as less than sane and the thread level raised a further notch with commensurate actions on their part. Do you really want to be a party, the er receieving end of it anyway, of a situation gone bad and (later) justified shooting by the LEOs? To them you're a person wandering around downtown Austin with a shotgun.

Because of 9/11 we should give away all our Privacy, right? Because of Pearl harbor we should lock up Japanese people, right? Because one nut flew a plane into the IRS we should give up our legal right to WANDER AROUND OUTSIDE WITH A LONG GUN?

Look, friend, if you want to do this, do it, be nice, but you will more than likely end up in jail, face some headaches, might not be able to get a CHL, might get kicked out of school. I will commend you for the effort, but think about why you are doing this, is it worth the risk and do you want to be thrown on the ground my the cops?

[frazzled]

Privacy has absolutely, absolutely, nothing to do with carrying a shotgun anywhere, much less in downtown metropolitan Austin.

[marksiwel]

Privacy has absolutely, absolutely, nothing to do with carrying a shotgun anywhere, much less in downtown metropolitan Austin.

And its not illegal either!

[frazzled]

Privacy has absolutely, absolutely, nothing to do with carrying a shotgun anywhere, much less in downtown metropolitan Austin.

And its not illegal either!

No. But as Dadman used to say, there's right then there's dead right. This falls udner dead right.

*Disturbing peace
*Brandishing a weapon
up to some sort of felony if the police think they are in danger. He's not talking about walking around with a sign as part of a legal parade/protest. He's talking about wandering near downtown Austin right next to the school and the capital with a shotgun. Unless someone is completely unaware of current events thats er, not the smartest move to make in life.

[marksiwel]

Privacy has absolutely, absolutely, nothing to do with carrying a shotgun anywhere, much less in downtown metropolitan Austin.

And its not illegal either!

No. But as Dadman used to say, there's right then there's dead right. This falls udner dead right.

*Disturbing peace
*Brandishing a weapon
up to some sort of felony if the police think they are in danger. He's not talking about walking around with a sign as part of a legal parade/protest. He's talking about wandering near downtown Austin right next to the school and the capital with a shotgun. Unless someone is completely unaware of current events thats er, not the smartest move to make in life.

If he Keeps the Weapon Over his Shoulder is that Brandishing?
You ever been to downtown Austin? I see people disturb the Peace all day long, I see Bums break the few pan handling laws, Rallys, protests ect happen there all the time with little to no Police interference.

I guess we can sit on our butts, or some of us can go out there and "Fight" for our "Rights"

[ifanyonecan]

The comments about the police shooting me, tackling me, arresting me, or doing anything to me are irrelevant. I already stated I would alert them beforehand, and if they believe it is illegal, I will not do this, but instead begin attempts to inform them of what the law says so they may be corrected and trained to handle situations correctly.

Legal fee comments are similarly irrelevant, I already stated that UT provides legal representation to full-time students included in tuition.

frazzled, I suggest you read the full thread before posting again so we can get more information rather than repeating what's been said.

[ifanyonecan]

There are more things you stated to which I didn't respond, because literally everything you said has already been discussed.

[frazzled]

Privacy has absolutely, absolutely, nothing to do with carrying a shotgun anywhere, much less in downtown metropolitan Austin.

And its not illegal either!

No. But as Dadman used to say, there's right then there's dead right. This falls udner dead right.

*Disturbing peace
*Brandishing a weapon
up to some sort of felony if the police think they are in danger. He's not talking about walking around with a sign as part of a legal parade/protest. He's talking about wandering near downtown Austin right next to the school and the capital with a shotgun. Unless someone is completely unaware of current events thats er, not the smartest move to make in life.

If he Keeps the Weapon Over his Shoulder is that Brandishing?
You ever been to downtown Austin? I see people disturb the Peace all day long, I see Bums break the few pan handling laws, Rallys, protests ect happen there all the time with little to no Police interference.

I guess we can sit on our butts, or some of us can go out there and "Fight" for our "Rights"

I see you volunteering someone else to do it. Lets see you do it first. Please tell us how that works out for you.
In the interim to the OP, listen to the people telling you NOT to do this. We're rationally telling you this is an inprudent move that could harm you permanently, for no benefit to defending the Second Amendment.

-Arrange a legal protest or march.
-Give money to organize protecting your rights. Volunteer to work with them or participate with them.
-Waiving a shotgun around screams "militia psycho and/or homeless crazy with a gun."

Do you really think giving the cops a piece of paper is going to do anything? Son, and I say son because you are an earnest college ager, don't put yourself in a potential DEADLY situation here. There are better ways to express and defend your rights.