Houston's Angry Karen

[OneGun]

This is sad:

Arturo Cordovez and his wife, Dr. Lia Franco, are natives of Ecuador who currently live in New Orleans where Lia is finishing her medical residency. In the last few months, Dr. Franco has been treating COVID-19 patients day after day. To decompress, the couple decided to spend the weekend in Houston over the Memorial Day holiday to unwind.

"She stopped behind us,” Arturo Cordovez said. “After that she started showing a hammer through the mirror. She was shaking her arm ... and cursing at us I think. I was thinking what did I do?”



The woman got out of her car, with a hammer and seemed to be threatening them with it. Before the situation escalated further, the police arrived and took her into custody.

Racism knows no bounds in the 21st Century.

Complete Story here: https://www.click2houston.com/news/loca ... uple-says/

[03Lightningrocks]

This is sad:

Arturo Cordovez and his wife, Dr. Lia Franco, are natives of Ecuador who currently live in New Orleans where Lia is finishing her medical residency. In the last few months, Dr. Franco has been treating COVID-19 patients day after day. To decompress, the couple decided to spend the weekend in Houston over the Memorial Day holiday to unwind.

"She stopped behind us,” Arturo Cordovez said. “After that she started showing a hammer through the mirror. She was shaking her arm ... and cursing at us I think. I was thinking what did I do?”



The woman got out of her car, with a hammer and seemed to be threatening them with it. Before the situation escalated further, the police arrived and took her into custody.

Racism knows no bounds in the 21st Century.

Complete Story here: https://www.click2houston.com/news/loca ... uple-says/

I am curious, at what point would a person be justified in using deadly force against a person attacking you with a hammer? They had already attempted to get away from her but she followed them into a parking lot and escalated her attack to approaching with a deadly weapon. In this particular situation I would not have shot angry Karen due to my belief that I could have overwhelmed her physically, but does that mean I am required to use lessor force? I am thinking she is real lucky she did not find herself at the business end of a firearm. Everybody and their dog carry a pistol in the car these days.

[oljames3]

This is sad:

Arturo Cordovez and his wife, Dr. Lia Franco, are natives of Ecuador who currently live in New Orleans where Lia is finishing her medical residency. In the last few months, Dr. Franco has been treating COVID-19 patients day after day. To decompress, the couple decided to spend the weekend in Houston over the Memorial Day holiday to unwind.

"She stopped behind us,” Arturo Cordovez said. “After that she started showing a hammer through the mirror. She was shaking her arm ... and cursing at us I think. I was thinking what did I do?”



The woman got out of her car, with a hammer and seemed to be threatening them with it. Before the situation escalated further, the police arrived and took her into custody.

Racism knows no bounds in the 21st Century.

Complete Story here: https://www.click2houston.com/news/loca ... uple-says/

I am curious, at what point would a person be justified in using deadly force against a person attacking you with a hammer? They had already attempted to get away from her but she followed them into a parking lot and escalated her attack to approaching with a deadly weapon. In this particular situation I would not have shot angry Karen due to my belief that I could have overwhelmed her physically, but does that mean I am required to use lessor force? I am thinking she is real lucky she did not find herself at the business end of a firearm. Everybody and their dog carry a pistol in the car these days.

One hard blow from a hammer could easily cause death or serious bodily injury (TPC 901(3)). If the hammer wielder is on the other side of an 8 lane highway, their impact weapon is not a legitimate threat. Assuming that one faces a deadly force threat, one must then consider the 5 elements of a good self-defense claim. As attorney Andrew Branca says, " ... there are at most 5 elements to any self-defense case (and often not even that many). That’s it—just 5. And that’s true in every one of the 50 states, and all US territories" https://lawofselfdefense.com/beginjourney/.

Innocence - You can’t start the fight.
Imminence - The law allows you to defend yourself from an attack that’s either happening or about to happen very soon, meaning within seconds.
Proportionality - If the threat you’re facing is non-deadly, then you’re only allowed to use non-deadly force in response. If the force you’re facing is deadly in nature, then you’re entitled to use deadly force OR non-deadly force to defend yourself.
Avoidance - Could you have safely avoided the fight? That’s the question the fourth element addresses.
Reasonableness - Everything that you perceive, decide, and do in defense of yourself or others must be reasonable and prudent, given the circumstances you faced, the information you knew, and your abilities (or disabilities).

[03Lightningrocks]

One hard blow from a hammer could easily cause death or serious bodily injury (TPC 901(3)). If the hammer wielder is on the other side of an 8 lane highway, their impact weapon is not a legitimate threat. Assuming that one faces a deadly force threat, one must then consider the 5 elements of a good self-defense claim. As attorney Andrew Branca says, " ... there are at most 5 elements to any self-defense case (and often not even that many). That’s it—just 5. And that’s true in every one of the 50 states, and all US territories" https://lawofselfdefense.com/beginjourney/.

Innocence - You can’t start the fight.
Imminence - The law allows you to defend yourself from an attack that’s either happening or about to happen very soon, meaning within seconds.
Proportionality - If the threat you’re facing is non-deadly, then you’re only allowed to use non-deadly force in response. If the force you’re facing is deadly in nature, then you’re entitled to use deadly force OR non-deadly force to defend yourself.
Avoidance - Could you have safely avoided the fight? That’s the question the fourth element addresses.
Reasonableness - Everything that you perceive, decide, and do in defense of yourself or others must be reasonable and prudent, given the circumstances you faced, the information you knew, and your abilities (or disabilities).

OK, good info. In this case, it seems to me the only questionable element is number four. Florida for instance has the "stand your ground" laws so I assume avoidance would not include running away. In my home I I am not required to run away either. But in a public situation like this, would avoidance include running away? Assuming one is not disabled in some way, theoretically one could avoid her by attempting to run away from her. Attempting to escape her by driving away has already failed.

Thanks for the response.

[oljames3]

One hard blow from a hammer could easily cause death or serious bodily injury (TPC 901(3)). If the hammer wielder is on the other side of an 8 lane highway, their impact weapon is not a legitimate threat. Assuming that one faces a deadly force threat, one must then consider the 5 elements of a good self-defense claim. As attorney Andrew Branca says, " ... there are at most 5 elements to any self-defense case (and often not even that many). That’s it—just 5. And that’s true in every one of the 50 states, and all US territories" https://lawofselfdefense.com/beginjourney/.

Innocence - You can’t start the fight.
Imminence - The law allows you to defend yourself from an attack that’s either happening or about to happen very soon, meaning within seconds.
Proportionality - If the threat you’re facing is non-deadly, then you’re only allowed to use non-deadly force in response. If the force you’re facing is deadly in nature, then you’re entitled to use deadly force OR non-deadly force to defend yourself.
Avoidance - Could you have safely avoided the fight? That’s the question the fourth element addresses.
Reasonableness - Everything that you perceive, decide, and do in defense of yourself or others must be reasonable and prudent, given the circumstances you faced, the information you knew, and your abilities (or disabilities).

OK, good info. In this case, it seems to me the only questionable element is number four. Florida for instance has the "stand your ground" laws so I assume avoidance would not include running away. In my home I I am not required to run away either. But in a public situation like this, would avoidance include running away? Assuming one is not disabled in some way, theoretically one could avoid her by attempting to run away from her. Attempting to escape her by driving away has already failed.

Thanks for the response.

Texas has no duty to retreat, under certain conditions. TPC 9.32(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.

(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (c) reasonably believed that the use of deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/SOTW ... m/PE.9.htm

TPC 9.31 has similar provisions for use of force.

In Texas, not only do we not have a duty to retreat, but the jury (finder of fact) cannot even consider "whether the actor failed to retreat." However, there is nothing to prevent the prosecutor from saying "Even though the defendant had no legal duty to retreat, a reasonable person would have." This, then, involves the element of Reasonableness, not the element or Avoidance and the jury may find that the defendant acted unreasonably.

Retreat from a an attacker using an impact weapon is much more feasible than retreat from an attacker with a firearm. You can't outrun a bullet. However, there are many reasons why one would not retreat even if one could safely do so by oneself. For example, if you are with a person who cannot avoid the threat by themselves, i.e. elderly parent, wife, child, etc., you might choose not to retreat.

[srothstein]

When the legal debate over removing the requirement to retreat was going on, one quote stuck with me. I don't remember who said it, but one of the arguments that the law was not necessary was that "No reasonable Texan would ever retreat."

[OneGun]

This is sad:

Arturo Cordovez and his wife, Dr. Lia Franco, are natives of Ecuador who currently live in New Orleans where Lia is finishing her medical residency. In the last few months, Dr. Franco has been treating COVID-19 patients day after day. To decompress, the couple decided to spend the weekend in Houston over the Memorial Day holiday to unwind.

"She stopped behind us,” Arturo Cordovez said. “After that she started showing a hammer through the mirror. She was shaking her arm ... and cursing at us I think. I was thinking what did I do?”



The woman got out of her car, with a hammer and seemed to be threatening them with it. Before the situation escalated further, the police arrived and took her into custody.

Racism knows no bounds in the 21st Century.

Complete Story here: https://www.click2houston.com/news/loca ... uple-says/

I am curious, at what point would a person be justified in using deadly force against a person attacking you with a hammer? They had already attempted to get away from her but she followed them into a parking lot and escalated her attack to approaching with a deadly weapon. In this particular situation I would not have shot angry Karen due to my belief that I could have overwhelmed her physically, but does that mean I am required to use lessor force? I am thinking she is real lucky she did not find herself at the business end of a firearm. Everybody and their dog carry a pistol in the car these days.

One hard blow from a hammer could easily cause death or serious bodily injury (TPC 901(3)). If the hammer wielder is on the other side of an 8 lane highway, their impact weapon is not a legitimate threat. Assuming that one faces a deadly force threat, one must then consider the 5 elements of a good self-defense claim. As attorney Andrew Branca says, " ... there are at most 5 elements to any self-defense case (and often not even that many). That’s it—just 5. And that’s true in every one of the 50 states, and all US territories" https://lawofselfdefense.com/beginjourney/.

Innocence - You can’t start the fight.
Imminence - The law allows you to defend yourself from an attack that’s either happening or about to happen very soon, meaning within seconds.
Proportionality - If the threat you’re facing is non-deadly, then you’re only allowed to use non-deadly force in response. If the force you’re facing is deadly in nature, then you’re entitled to use deadly force OR non-deadly force to defend yourself.
Avoidance - Could you have safely avoided the fight? That’s the question the fourth element addresses.
Reasonableness - Everything that you perceive, decide, and do in defense of yourself or others must be reasonable and prudent, given the circumstances you faced, the information you knew, and your abilities (or disabilities).

I imagine that I might draw my gun and warn the woman to drop the hammer. If she keeps advancing towards me dropping f-bombs and yelling, I might pull the trigger when she is within striking distance. However, the point is, what was she thinking carrying around a hammer and waiving it at people in a threatening manner?

[philip964]

This is sad:

Arturo Cordovez and his wife, Dr. Lia Franco, are natives of Ecuador who currently live in New Orleans where Lia is finishing her medical residency. In the last few months, Dr. Franco has been treating COVID-19 patients day after day. To decompress, the couple decided to spend the weekend in Houston over the Memorial Day holiday to unwind.

"She stopped behind us,” Arturo Cordovez said. “After that she started showing a hammer through the mirror. She was shaking her arm ... and cursing at us I think. I was thinking what did I do?”



The woman got out of her car, with a hammer and seemed to be threatening them with it. Before the situation escalated further, the police arrived and took her into custody.

Racism knows no bounds in the 21st Century.

Complete Story here: https://www.click2houston.com/news/loca ... uple-says/

I am curious, at what point would a person be justified in using deadly force against a person attacking you with a hammer? They had already attempted to get away from her but she followed them into a parking lot and escalated her attack to approaching with a deadly weapon. In this particular situation I would not have shot angry Karen due to my belief that I could have overwhelmed her physically, but does that mean I am required to use lessor force? I am thinking she is real lucky she did not find herself at the business end of a firearm. Everybody and their dog carry a pistol in the car these days.

One hard blow from a hammer could easily cause death or serious bodily injury (TPC 901(3)). If the hammer wielder is on the other side of an 8 lane highway, their impact weapon is not a legitimate threat. Assuming that one faces a deadly force threat, one must then consider the 5 elements of a good self-defense claim. As attorney Andrew Branca says, " ... there are at most 5 elements to any self-defense case (and often not even that many). That’s it—just 5. And that’s true in every one of the 50 states, and all US territories" https://lawofselfdefense.com/beginjourney/.

Innocence - You can’t start the fight.
Imminence - The law allows you to defend yourself from an attack that’s either happening or about to happen very soon, meaning within seconds.
Proportionality - If the threat you’re facing is non-deadly, then you’re only allowed to use non-deadly force in response. If the force you’re facing is deadly in nature, then you’re entitled to use deadly force OR non-deadly force to defend yourself.
Avoidance - Could you have safely avoided the fight? That’s the question the fourth element addresses.
Reasonableness - Everything that you perceive, decide, and do in defense of yourself or others must be reasonable and prudent, given the circumstances you faced, the information you knew, and your abilities (or disabilities).

I imagine that I might draw my gun and warn the woman to drop the hammer. If she keeps advancing towards me dropping f-bombs and yelling, I might pull the trigger when she is within striking distance. However, the point is, what was she thinking carrying around a hammer and waiving it at people in a threatening manner?

I think the Doctor pointed out she needed brain medical assistance. There are more people out there than we realize who are just barely functioning. Then there are a lot of enablers who love them, who help them get by, without realizing they need brain medical assistance. In one particularly tragic incidence a mom taught her son to shoot an AR-15, thinking it would help.

[03Lightningrocks]

The illness I run into the most is bipolar disorder. One minute they are just fine and life is good and the next minute they are going off the deep end over what seems like nothing to everyone else. I agree that many times family members know they are off but just try and deal with it themselves.

[chasfm11]

I think the Doctor pointed out she needed brain medical assistance. There are more people out there than we realize who are just barely functioning. Then there are a lot of enablers who love them, who help them get by, without realizing they need brain medical assistance. In one particularly tragic incidence a mom taught her son to shoot an AR-15, thinking it would help.

I can cite a non-violent but distressing example. I was doing an outsourcing for a Dallas based company. I was working with one particular customer manager who was bi-polar. I arrived early and made coffee in one of their company machines. He came in a few minutes afterward and yelled and screamed at me for almost a half an hour because I had put the coffee pot on the wrong side of a two burner machine. There was absolutely nothing in his prior behavior to warn me that such a tirade was coming. He drew a crowd. Fortunately, I didn't respond. After it was over, one of the company employees apologized to me, saying that the manager sometimes didn't take his medication. For those who are not familiar with them, many of the drugs used to treat mental illness come with side effects that are hard to live with. He was a much larger framed man that I am and I would have had a problem with him if he had turned violent.

I would be willing to wager that a great percentage of the crime in this country is committed by people who are mentally ill. I also suspect that many of the suicide by cop situations are mental illness rather than street drugs. I like your choice of words 'barely functioning" because I do think that is the status for too many. They are the ones about whom the neighbors can say "I never saw him/her act like that before." Most of them are very good at disguising just how close to the edge they really are.

[Soccerdad1995]

The couple were smart to pull into a gas station. They tend to have cameras covering the pumps, plus usually leave you with a way out. They were from out of town so likely did not know the location of the nearest police station, but they did a very good job by calling 911 and getting to a place with cameras while also leaving themselves an escape route.

I'm not sure of the legal question, but personally I would avoid using deadly force unless it was my only option. Even putting aside the life of this clearly sick individual, there are also legal hassles to contend with regardless of justification.

[C-dub]

The illness I run into the most is bipolar disorder. One minute they are just fine and life is good and the next minute they are going off the deep end over what seems like nothing to everyone else. I agree that many times family members know they are off but just try and deal with it themselves.

I'm not sure that would be bipolar disorder. Typically, but not always bipolar cycles are several months to 1-2 years. In my limited experience and knowledge flipping that quickly would be something else. Schizophrenia maybe, IDK. I have seen medications increase the cycle rates. Even then the cycles were in weeks not minutes. Just about the only thing I can attribute that fast or nearly that quick of a change is when a daily medication wears off after 12-16 hours of a long or stressful day.

[03Lightningrocks]

The illness I run into the most is bipolar disorder. One minute they are just fine and life is good and the next minute they are going off the deep end over what seems like nothing to everyone else. I agree that many times family members know they are off but just try and deal with it themselves.

I'm not sure that would be bipolar disorder. Typically, but not always bipolar cycles are several months to 1-2 years. In my limited experience and knowledge flipping that quickly would be something else. Schizophrenia maybe, IDK. I have seen medications increase the cycle rates. Even then the cycles were in weeks not minutes. Just about the only thing I can attribute that fast or nearly that quick of a change is when a daily medication wears off after 12-16 hours of a long or stressful day.

Yeah, well that works. I am not really a psychologist and due to China Virus have not stayed at a Holiday in for several months so I will leave the diagnosis to your apparent greater knowledge on the subject.

[C-dub]

The illness I run into the most is bipolar disorder. One minute they are just fine and life is good and the next minute they are going off the deep end over what seems like nothing to everyone else. I agree that many times family members know they are off but just try and deal with it themselves.

I'm not sure that would be bipolar disorder. Typically, but not always bipolar cycles are several months to 1-2 years. In my limited experience and knowledge flipping that quickly would be something else. Schizophrenia maybe, IDK. I have seen medications increase the cycle rates. Even then the cycles were in weeks not minutes. Just about the only thing I can attribute that fast or nearly that quick of a change is when a daily medication wears off after 12-16 hours of a long or stressful day.

Yeah, well that works. I am not really a psychologist and due to China Virus have not stayed at a Holiday in for several months so I will leave the diagnosis to your apparent greater knowledge on the subject.

Me neither. Just a medical technologist surrounded by a few folks with thyroid disorders, which can and has lead to bipolar disorder and or similar issues with some of the same effects.

[03Lightningrocks]

The illness I run into the most is bipolar disorder. One minute they are just fine and life is good and the next minute they are going off the deep end over what seems like nothing to everyone else. I agree that many times family members know they are off but just try and deal with it themselves.

I'm not sure that would be bipolar disorder. Typically, but not always bipolar cycles are several months to 1-2 years. In my limited experience and knowledge flipping that quickly would be something else. Schizophrenia maybe, IDK. I have seen medications increase the cycle rates. Even then the cycles were in weeks not minutes. Just about the only thing I can attribute that fast or nearly that quick of a change is when a daily medication wears off after 12-16 hours of a long or stressful day.

Yeah, well that works. I am not really a psychologist and due to China Virus have not stayed at a Holiday in for several months so I will leave the diagnosis to your apparent greater knowledge on the subject.

Me neither. Just a medical technologist surrounded by a few folks with thyroid disorders, which can and has lead to bipolar disorder and or similar issues with some of the same effects.

It seems pretty common to think bi-polar when one observes folks going from calm and reasonably sane by appearances to being completely enraged over some silly little thing but maybe it is actually some other malady. I can't help but wonder when they will go violent on someone when I see people do this.

We observe this quite frequently in leftist loons. Maybe that deserves it's own category.