Rights vs Responsibilities

[imkopaka]

Hey all, I'm interested in hearing some opinions. Across the country we are seeing bans on large gatherings, mandatory quarantines, businesses shut down, travel restricted, and all manner of other things that sound an awful lot like martial law. Some of these things sound perfectly reasonable given the circumstances, others...not so much.

What do you think about these government controls in light of our constitutional rights? How do they co-mingle? Is there a point at which we say "I'm a free American and I'll do what I want" or does the government have a right to control things in times of crisis and we, a responsibility to obey for the sake of national safety/security? At what point is a line crossed? Who gets to make that call? Please speak your mind - the people whose opinions I value most are more divided that usual on this topic and I would like to hear wisdom from others to help guide my own opinions (and potentially decisions).

[jason812]

What concerns me more are the big steps being taken that implement socialism. Companies forced to provide services, wages guaranteed, unilateral control given to governors and mayors... and the Republicans are going right along with it and pouring cash on top to boot.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Maybe the government could say that by potentially spreading disease, you are not peaceably assembling. I don't know but the way the Constitution is stepped on every day by the elected, I don't see them caring too much about violating the people any more. They will use the virus excuse and move the pendulum closer to socialism. After all, its for the children.

I want to see the repercussions of not following the gathering recommendations/bans. I really don't think the people will go for a full "Outbreak" type quarantine or martial law. I think if it comes to implementing martial law across the country, the country is already lost.

[03Lightningrocks]

Unfortunately, Americans get freaked out by fear and are often way to eager to give up their rights. After 9/11 we threw the right to privacy straight in the garbage can and set it on fire. I am not surprised we all sit by and make excuses of why it is OK to take away our right to assemble. Leftists have completely demolished the right of free speech by labeling any words that feels uncomfortable as hate speech. I will not be surprise to see some state governments go after firearms in the name of security in the next few weeks or so.

[Grayling813]

How far will the enemies of the Constitution, both foreign and domestic, go in their quest to destroy the Republic?

Live free or die.

The wife and I spent the weekend in Austin with our daughter and son in law doing whatever we pleased. We ate out in restaurants, went to shopping centers, went to a movie, went to the newly opened Shoot Point Blank.

I will not live in fear. Government STILL does not have the authority to take away my God given liberties.

If I develop symptoms of illness, I will stay home, as I always do.

[seph]

How far will the enemies of the Constitution, both foreign and domestic, go in their quest to destroy the Republic?

Live free or die.

The wife and I spent the weekend in Austin with our daughter and son in law doing whatever we pleased. We ate out in restaurants, went to shopping centers, went to a movie, went to the newly opened Shoot Point Blank.

I will not live in fear. Government STILL does not have the authority to take away my God given liberties.

If I develop symptoms of illness, I will stay home, as I always do.

Similar to how we spent our weekend. As long as I have no symptoms, I will be out and about running errands as normal. When I develop symptoms, I will stay home and let it run its course.

[flechero]

How far will the enemies of the Constitution, both foreign and domestic, go in their quest to destroy the Republic?

Live free or die.

The wife and I spent the weekend in Austin with our daughter and son in law doing whatever we pleased. We ate out in restaurants, went to shopping centers, went to a movie, went to the newly opened Shoot Point Blank.

I will not live in fear. Government STILL does not have the authority to take away my God given liberties.

If I develop symptoms of illness, I will stay home, as I always do.

Similar to how we spent our weekend. As long as I have no symptoms, I will be out and about running errands as normal. When I develop symptoms, I will stay home and let it run its course.

Are you two serious? Pull you heads out of your fannies.

The government isn't putting their thumb on you to keep you down... they are trying to do the #1 thing they are here for, to protect and keep safe the citizenry at large... if you can't curb your social extravagance and hang tight for a couple weeks for the good of the rest of the country, I would actually question your patriotism.

Don't you have parents, aunts, uncles, other relative or friends who are in the higher risk age or health groups? Don't you see the value of curbing this? If enough of you keep this up, we may as well be vacationing in Italy or China.

[PriestTheRunner]

I'm gonna cross post this right quick:

Can somebody explain to me how this is legal?

Sure I think its a good idea, but it is still PERSONAL responsibility and decisions that should dictate, not top down implimentation.

Friggin police state.

The State of emergency changes the normal rules, I believe.

While I understand your sentiment, in this case I support it. A large percentage of the population would not adhere to a 'please stay home' request... and as one who has a number of high risk family members, I see this as a good move. Also have several friends who are Dr.'s and they also support it.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Amendment I: Violated via mandated maximum assemblies.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II: Violated via several emergency declarations, and the right to muster a militia. See Example
A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV: Violated via New York's "volunteering" of a profiteer's hand sanitizer stash. Ya the guy is a douchbag, but that doesn't mean he gets to have his rights violated. See Example
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V: Violated via Dallas among dozens of others forcefully closing resturaunts. If someone CANNOT use his private property however he deems fit, then the government is 'taking' it. See Example
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI: Violated via the siezure of property without provision of a lawyer, as well as not allowing jury trials for Emminent Domain upon which such seizures are based.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII: Violated via the siezure of property without allowing a jury trial when the Government is the defendant.
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII: What are the fines going to be if someone refuses to close? I'm gonna bet they will be excessive.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX: IE, the government only gets to do that which it has been specifically, CONSTITUTIONALLY, enumerated. Just having 'emergency powers' in the millions of laws on the books doesn't make it constitutional.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X: II guess the 10th is safe for once, at least for now.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[flechero]

I'm gonna cross post this right quick:

Shocker. Can't be offended in just one thread?

[Aggie_engr]

How far will the enemies of the Constitution, both foreign and domestic, go in their quest to destroy the Republic?

Live free or die.

The wife and I spent the weekend in Austin with our daughter and son in law doing whatever we pleased. We ate out in restaurants, went to shopping centers, went to a movie, went to the newly opened Shoot Point Blank.

I will not live in fear. Government STILL does not have the authority to take away my God given liberties.

If I develop symptoms of illness, I will stay home, as I always do.

Similar to how we spent our weekend. As long as I have no symptoms, I will be out and about running errands as normal. When I develop symptoms, I will stay home and let it run its course.

Are you two serious? Pull you heads out of your fannies.

The government isn't putting their thumb on you to keep you down... they are trying to do the #1 thing they are here for, to protect and keep safe the citizenry at large... if you can't curb your social extravagance and hang tight for a couple weeks for the good of the rest of the country, I would actually question your patriotism.

Don't you have parents, aunts, uncles, other relative or friends who are in the higher risk age or health groups? Don't you see the value of curbing this? If enough of you keep this up, we may as well be vacationing in Italy or China.

If you think the government has any interest in the least bit of your health and safety, my friend I would look up the definition of naive. With that being said, I agree with other members that we should be using our ability to think for ourselves and make rational decisions, not giving in to the media induced panic rhetoric that has caused most normal Americans to fall into full blown hysteria.

[Aggie_engr]

PriestTheRunner Thank you for shedding light on the truth of this topic. Your post is a handbook of how freedom loving Americans should approach situations like that which we find ourselves in lately. Without this type of approach applied to our daily lives, we have lost our way as a people and what this great nation used to stand for.

[imkopaka]

I would like to encourage everyone to be civil. You can, and are encouraged to, post your opinions. But you are not asked to belittle or demean other people and their opinions in the process. There are a lot of good comments here, but it sounds like we are enemies when we are not.

Back to the subject matter, what do y'all think of certain jurisdictions restricting gun carry/sales/transfers? Obviously everyone on this board will find that abhorrent, but does that reframe the rest of the issue for you? How? Why or why not?

Also what are your thoughts on civil disobedience exhibited by some business owners, most notably Kid Rock, refusing to obey orders to shutter their businesses?

[flechero]

If you think the government has any interest in the least bit of your health and safety, my friend I would look up the definition of naive. With that being said, I agree with other members that we should be using our ability to think for ourselves and make rational decisions, not giving in to the media induced panic rhetoric that has caused most normal Americans to fall into full blown hysteria.




Your post is a handbook of how freedom loving Americans should approach situations like that which we find ourselves in lately.

Wow, your foil hat is tight.

I'm not giving in to the media, one of my good friends runs the ER at a major hospital... and several others are Dr's who are all in crisis mode right now, preparing for a worst case scenario.

I hope you and the other selfish and self important "freedom loving Americans" enjoy your dinners and a movie out, in exchange for endangering a segment of the population. You guys are coming off like a couple of spoiled 3 year olds... or OCT activists.

[seph]

As a healthcare worker, working directly on COVID, and a Type 1 diabetic x 47 years, I am not terribly interested in the "rights" of people to congregate and wank their jaws.

If you are symptomatic, you have probably been shedding virus for several days before you knew anything was going on.

Hoarding has caused critical shortages of basic personal protective equipment for front-line healthcare providers.

I do not live in fear, but I have worked with infectious diseases, of all sorts, for about 7 of my 27 years in healthcare.

I can pretty well guarantee that at some point, someone will have done, "whatever we wanted to do," which will spread infection to someone like me.

At some point, after seeing other, "someones like me," infected, someone like me will do violence. That is likely to be the start of the gun-grabbing-National-Guard-in-the-streets.

My question is: is having your recreation worth the life and/or well being of your older neighbor, people at church, your parents?

John Adams who observed, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

John Adams also said:
Liberty once lost is lost forever. When the People once surrender their share in the Legislature, and their Right of defending the Limitations upon the Government, and of resisting every Encroachment upon them, they can never regain it.

Looks at what political party a is the one pushing for the most mandatory restrictions. That alone is very telling.

[parabelum]

It is not right nor responsible to stroll around those highly at risk and susceptible business as usual. If you don’t want the nanny to step in even more, act with reason and responsibility in these times.