Quick question for all of the attorneys!

[jb2012]

I am looking at finishing up undergrad next spring and trying to decide on post undergrad plans. I am considering taking my LSAT in June and applying for law school. Since my school does not offer a law degree, I am considering moving home and going to UNT Dallas or A&M law school in Ft Worth. Will going to a school that is less known be an issue when looking for a job as compared to someone who went to UT or SMU? Any other advice? I know the job market for new lawyers is very weak right now, but I am extremely interested in criminal defense and I actually enjoy watching court hearings (I know lame).

[baldeagle]

I have a friend who got her degree from what is now A&M Law in Ft. Worth. She has not had any problem finding work. I think it depends on whether you just want to practice law or join a huge prestigious law firm.

[oohrah]

If you are interested in criminal court law, I recommend you also look at Baylor Law School, They have a very high ranking for preparing lawyers for the courtroom.

[ScottDLS]

If you've got the coin SMU is pretty good too...

[WildBill]

I am looking at finishing up undergrad next spring and trying to decide on post undergrad plans. I am considering taking my LSAT in June and applying for law school. Since my school does not offer a law degree, I am considering moving home and going to UNT Dallas or A&M law school in Ft Worth. Will going to a school that is less known be an issue when looking for a job as compared to someone who went to UT or SMU? Any other advice? I know the job market for new lawyers is very weak right now, but I am extremely interested in criminal defense and I actually enjoy watching court hearings (I know lame).

I suggest applying to several law schools and then you can later choose the "best school" from those who accept your application.
I am not a lawyer, but really enjoyed watching some of the criminal trials on Court TV.
That said, I don't think I would have enjoyed or been a good criminal lawyer.

[WTR]

I know when A & M had their first graduating class, they were the only school to have all their students pass the bar on the first try.

[ScottDLS]

I can also pass on what I've heard from attorneys that I respect and have practiced in Texas as well as many other states with large legal markets. The school you go to will make a difference in your initial job search, especially based on the location and area of practice. The big NYC law firms, investment banks, and giant corporations who hire them are HUGE school snobs. It better be Harvard, Yale, or another Ivy if you wan't to work with Goldman Sachs, hedge funds, etc.

In DC and Federal political legal work...Georgetown, George Mason, GWU, Maryland, and the local ones are hot if you want to start out in DC. Then if you want to practice in a particular State big market, like Dallas or Houston, you start looking at the good schools in that state like UT Austin, Baylor, SMU, etc. In a big state like Texas, I don't think the newer schools like A&M Dallas and UNT are necessarily going to hurt you IF you get good grades and maybe do some intern or volunteer work in the summers. Passing the Bar and getting a license will also help you become a Fed like FBI, DEA, etc. if you like that kind of thing. I think about 25% of FBI Special Agents have a law degree. If you like criminal law, I think the best experience is to work for the State/County as an ADA...pay's lousy, but so is criminal defense, since most alleged criminal don't really have much money, and the GOV usually manages to freeze it pre-trial so they can deprive them of the best counsel (conspiracy theory?? You decide).

[jb2012]

Thanks everyone! I really don't have any desire to do business type litigation, aside from a few side jobs for some possible easy money. The criminal side I'm extremely interested in though, regardless of pay. There is pretty much no way I can afford baylor or smu (poor boy here haha) and I'm not sure about getting in, I have a 3.2 right now and I guess I would need to see my LSAT score to really make any decisions.

[JALLEN]

Going to law school is not something you "consider." Either you want to be a lawyer, no matter what it takes, or you don't want to badly enough to put up with the challenge.

BTW, my sister went to the law school now known as Texas A&M, a long time ago. They sent her a new diploma. She wasn't happy.

Anyway, going to law school is not what you think. It is a non-trivial project, very intense. The purpose is to get you to think like a lawyer. You don't learn laws; those change, and are different in each jurisdiction. It's more akin to brainwashing, and ruins you for honest work. You will spend a fortune, and may not like the result.

Once you are a lawyer, it gets worse. Half the people hate you, either the losers you beat, or the clients you lose for. The job of other lawyers is to make you look stupid, unprepared, foolish, greedy. Your job is the opposite, make them look stupid, unprepared, foolish and greedy.

I suggest you forget about it. Of course, if you want to be a lawyer so badly you don't care what I think, or anybody else, it may be for you.

In Texas, the best choice is UT. The shared experience of thousands of others will be a help in many subtle ways, open doors that can't be opened other ways. This isn't to say you can't be a terrific lawyer if you go elsewhere. I graduated from a small part time school in CA, and I had no trouble holding my own with the Stanford, Harvard, Yale, USC grads. I just wasn't invited to any of those parties, or to join those firms.

Choice of school is a factor, but as you build a reputation, that matters less and less. Once you know what you are doing, and everybody knows it, it won't matter what school you went to.

I don't have a lot of experience with criminal law. They never caught any of my clients.

[The Annoyed Man]

Going to law school is not something you "consider." Either you want to be a lawyer, no matter what it takes, or you don't want to badly enough to put up with the challenge.

BTW, my sister went to the law school now known as Texas A&M, a long time ago. They sent her a new diploma. She wasn't happy.

Anyway, going to law school is not what you think. It is a non-trivial project, very intense. The purpose is to get you to think like a lawyer. You don't learn laws; those change, and are different in each jurisdiction. It's more akin to brainwashing, and ruins you for honest work. You will spend a fortune, and may not like the result.

Once you are a lawyer, it gets worse. Half the people hate you, either the losers you beat, or the clients you lose for. The job of other lawyers is to make you look stupid, unprepared, foolish, greedy. Your job is the opposite, make them look stupid, unprepared, foolish and greedy.

I suggest you forget about it. Of course, if you want to be a lawyer so badly you don't care what I think, or anybody else, it may be for you.

In Texas, the best choice is UT. The shared experience of thousands of others will be a help in many subtle ways, open doors that can't be opened other ways. This isn't to say you can't be a terrific lawyer if you go elsewhere. I graduated from a small part time school in CA, and I had no trouble holding my own with the Stanford, Harvard, Yale, USC grads. I just wasn't invited to any of those parties, or to join those firms.

Choice of school is a factor, but as you build a reputation, that matters less and less. Once you know what you are doing, and everybody knows it, it won't matter what school you went to.

I don't have a lot of experience with criminal law. They never caught any of my clients.

Not to mention, as I recall, JALLEN had clients who bore a frogman's insignia and who were best not trifled with.

[SA_Steve]

Sounds like the law schools are now prep'ing their students for the bar exam. Used to be you had to take a 3rd party supplemental course in order to pass a state specific bar exam (which emphasizes the state's particular court system structure, procedures, customs and forms).

[WildBill]

Going to law school is not something you "consider."
Either you want to be a lawyer, no matter what it takes, or you don't want to badly enough to put up with the challenge.

This last weekend I met a young man who thought he wanted to be a criminal lawyer.
He went to law school, passed the bar exam and then decided he didn't want to be a lawyer.
So he joined a local police department and became a police officer.

I also wanted to add one more point to JALLEN's wise advice.
In addition to where you went to law school, your ranking in your graduating class can greatly influence your opportunities for employment.

[JALLEN]

Sounds like the law schools are now prep'ing their students for the bar exam. Used to be you had to take a 3rd party supplemental course in order to pass a state specific bar exam (which emphasizes the state's particular court system structure, procedures, customs and forms).

Not too much.

I can't recall anyone passing the CA Bar exam who had not taken a bar review course. It isn't required, but is foolish not to. The passing rate in CA is so pitiful, you need every advantage you can get. Each state differs in the bar exam to the extent, and the detriment of not passing so daunting, that it is a Real Good Idea [tm] to take a bar review course before the exam.

The bar review I took ~40 years ago lasted 3 weeks or so, and I thereafter spent an entire month doing nothing but study for the exam. I got up, got dressed, studied for ~4 hours, break for lunch, then back to the books, just like a job. Each evening, 3 of us got together for review of specific subjects, the schedule for which had been carefully planned in advance. The pass rate was less than half. All 3 of us in our study group passed on the first try.

There are three separate skill sets involved in completing law school, passing bar exams, and practicing law, with very little overlap.

The CA Bar (the only one I took) doesn't emphasize court structure, or forms. They look for thinking like a lawyer, weaving facts ststed in the question with general rules, minority views, etc to reach a logical and supportable conclusion.

True story. On one question, I misread it, estates/community property cross-over. I realized it as we were walking out, when I heard some others discussing it. The margin between passing and failing is so slim, a poor grade on any one question almost certainly dooms you. I spent the next few months in a despondent panic. I passed anyway, and all I can figure is that the grader saw that I had misread the question, analysed the facts as I read them, discussed the issues and arrived at a conclusion in a lawyerlike manner, so that I was not penalized too much. I got the highest grade in the state.

[VMI77]

I am looking at finishing up undergrad next spring and trying to decide on post undergrad plans. I am considering taking my LSAT in June and applying for law school. Since my school does not offer a law degree, I am considering moving home and going to UNT Dallas or A&M law school in Ft Worth. Will going to a school that is less known be an issue when looking for a job as compared to someone who went to UT or SMU? Any other advice? I know the job market for new lawyers is very weak right now, but I am extremely interested in criminal defense and I actually enjoy watching court hearings (I know lame).

My son scored a perfect 180 on the LSAT. He was admitted to Harvard though he declined in order to take a full scholarship from the University of Chicago. He graduated from the University of Chicago last year. He sill can't get a job, nor can many of his classmates. One classmate was recently miffed to find a job he interviewed for went to a female from, I think, the University of Iowa. Many of his female classmates found employment, though even they are mostly underemployed. One, for example, got a job with an insurance company for $50K per year. Law school was free for him, but a lot of his classmates owe over $200K in student loans and they're not getting employment commensurate with their degrees.

So, take this however you want. My son was also offered a scholarship at UT and he now says he should just have gone there as going to the 4th ranked law school in the country has done nothing for him...and he hated Chicago.The job market for new lawyers isn't just weak, it's practically non-existent, with somewhat better odds for affirmative action hires.

And to second what JALLEN said....my son loves going to school. He was a double major at UT and had a 4.0 GPA, but he hated law school.

[WildBill]

I found this on the website of the American Bar Association.
It allows you to generate reports about employment for lawyers and various law schools.
Some very interesting data!
http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/