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Need some feedback on this situation at church.

A woman at church is in the middle of a nasty separation. Her husband moved out but frequently enters the home when she's away at work. As the house is jointly theirs (divorce is not even begun) the cops have told her, basically, unless he physically threatens her she cannot even get a restraining order. She can change the locks, but as it's his house too, he legally can break in -- just like if he locked himself out of the house.

Last Saturday, he did one of his sudden appearances. Scared the woman badly. According to her, he made a rather veiled threat by referencing the Garth Brooks song with the line, "Momma's in the grave yard and Poppa's in the pen."

A friend of hers (not me!) advised her to get a handgun and a CCL. She doesn't have the money for either. For a moment, and just a moment, I thought of loaning her a pistol for self-defense. As fast as the thought entered my mind, I stopped it -- that's all sorts of trouble waiting, and none of it will be good for me. I also fleetingly thought about selling her a handgun. Nope...not any better. In the two seconds these thoughts flittered through my brain, she said something about she wouldn't even know how to use it if she had it. Something clicked...I've taught several women from church to shoot. Three have gone on to get their Texas CHLs. One just wanted to learn what to do with a gun. None were perceiving any personal threat. Maybe I could do that - just teach her the basics and let her go from there. If she wants to buy a gun, a new HiPoint can be found for $100 or so.

To be clear: I am not a trained instructor. By vocation, I am a pastor. By avocation, I am a gun enthusiast who enjoys helping others learn a little bit about shooting, gun safety, and how they work. Would I be out of my mind, knowing what I know about her situation, to offer to take her to the range and give her some basic shooting lessons? She would use my guns at the range only, and none would leave my possession. What she does with that experience is up to her: purchase a handgun, take an official, professionally-taught class, or walk away from guns completely. Is this opening myself up for all sorts of liability? Is my pastoral desire to help this woman protect herself and her kids clouding my better judgement?

[The only advice I gave her yesterday is that, in Texas, she can legally carry a loaded firearm in her home and in her car without a license and that if she is gravely fearful for her life (repeated those four words several times) she is justified in lethal use of the gun. I also carefully said "I am not a lawyer, and a lawyer might tell you differently."]

After a week's rumination and contemplation, here's my plan: visit with her in the next day or two and pointedly ask, "What would you like me to do to help?" This way, instead of me pushing my ideas on her (which, by the way, makes me liable for giving her advice/counsel outside of a theological/spiritual realm; I have been told that courts have held pastors accountable in cases like that), I can support what she decides. Part of it is to take the onus off of me; part of it is to allow her to make some decisions, "empowering" her a bit in this process where she feels powerless. If she wants to learn how to shoot, I'll figure something out - if I have to, I'll take her with a witness so the conversation can be observed that I wasn't teaching her "deadly tactics". I've provided several Houston area numbers for her to call for pro bono lawyers. If she wants to look into a shelter situation, I'll help with that, too.

I am the first to admit that part of my job is to trust people and take them at their word. Knowing the hubby and having seen some of his antics (she called me to be in the house when she confronted him with wanting a divorce, planning on having him move out; he became verbally abusive, screaming and yelling all sorts of obsenities at the woman, and forced HER to move out. Definitely a low point in my ministry.) I have no doubt in what she is telling me. Is some of it her perceived truth? Possibly. But the main vein of the story, I have no doubt is accurate.

I've had little -to - none experience in the realm of domestic violence. Does this sound like I am on the right track, providing counsel and care, without opening up myself to HUGE liability issues? I realize that anyone can sue me for almost any doggone reason; I'm talking about taking unreasonable risk here. It's not only a personal liability, but because I am the woman's pastor, there is probably a church liability issue I am trying to be careful about as well.

Q

quoheleth,

As you know there are several pastors on the board here. I would suggest seeing if they have any experience in this matter. Counseling during a divorce can be a real sticky issue. I have seen a couple of problems in the past where pastor's were drug into a nasty situation through no fault of their own and it ended up hurting their careers and the individuals involved.

As far as her being able to protect herself, that is tough. Without the prior experience or gun ownership, it might not be a good idea to try to introduce that when her life is at the stage it is now. Tough call on that without knowing the individuals and the situation myself. I do know many police departments will do 'keep the peace' escorts when estranged individuals have to meet to exchange items or other property.

Good luck on the issue. Divorces are a nasty situation and if one of the individuals in semi-unstable, then they can escalate quickly if they are pushed and fly into a fit of rage. As a LEO, domestic violence calls were one of the most dangerous I got involved in as you were dealing with unknown parties and unknown levels of anger with the potential to get caught right in the middle of a full out fight or attempt to severely injure or kill the other. I hated going on those calls.

If she has a Pastor your best move would be to convince her to go to her Pastor.

wish I knew what city, if any, y'all are in.
1st of all stay completely away from introducing a firearm into the situation! Glad you figured that out.
2nd she must file for the divorce to kick in a lot of protective things for herself. Even a TRO is better than nothing.
Get him served his papers by a Constable or Sheriff deputy so they read to him the attached warnings, dos and don'ts.
Then she can change the locks and have reasonable expectations of him not entering the home univited.
A TRO does not have big teeth but it can hurt him in any further proceedings.

Take her to the Precinct Constable's Office or PD and have them give her "not issue" a domestic abuse card with the info for shelters and classes and other info that she can use right now. This can be a lot of immediate help.

Most of your large PDs no longer do Civil Standby calls but your Constable Dept. will. She should talk to them beofre agreeing to let him come to the house for any items or whatever. She is afraid of injury and there need not be a previous instance of violence .

Sarge

Why go that far?
a taser will do the job just fine. tell her to get one and the next time she fet scared she can shoot w/o using a leathal force.
I'm not a lawyer but i think that any action she takes against her husband will be considered a domestic viollance act w/o a proof that she felt in danger. This goes for shooting, using a taser, mace or even throwing a shoe at him.
as adviced above, tell her to get a lawyer!

quoheleth wrote:Need some feedback on this situation at church.

A woman at church is in the middle of a nasty separation. Her husband moved out but frequently enters the home when she's away at work. As the house is jointly theirs (divorce is not even begun) the cops have told her, basically, unless he physically threatens her she cannot even get a restraining order. She can change the locks, but as it's his house too, he legally can break in -- just like if he locked himself out of the house.

This first part is not accurate, at all.
She needs to consult with a divorce attorney specializing in nutjobs and do the things Sarge1208 said immediately.

I agree with the input of the others. The situation sounds as if she is being mentally abused by the husband. His anger and his obscene outbursts are a control mechanism commonly used by wife abusers. She is in an abusive relationship(or it sounds like it) and she needs to get out of it, ASAP.

There are resources available to her, if she will utilize them. If money is a problem, then the county bar association is a good place to start. Many counties have legal aid associations. Also women's shelters know of resources she can contact. Also talking to the local P.D. may get her referrals to the type of assistance she needs.

...and, he said...?

carlson1 wrote: If she has a Pastor your best move would be to convince her to go to her Pastor.

That would be me; thus the concern; thus the post.

I don't like introducing a gun into this mess - I really don't, for lots of reasons. But the hubby is such a doped up boozer that I doubt, seriously, that pepper spray, et. al., will phaze him much.

That leaves the legal recourse. I'm trying to get her to contact such places as has been mentioned - legal aid, etc. - to ask for legal help and counsel. A couple folks said use the constables to have them present when he comes by to collect stuff --- they were the ones who basically said they can't do anything about his coming/going/verbiage.

As I said, I'm hoping we can sit down this weekend and talk; find out what she needs/wants and go from there.

Thanks for the comments...
Q

I suggest getting her one of these


They are pretty simple and less than lethal.

Why not just a conventional stun gun? I can think of several ways that holding a stun gun that looks like a pistol could go wrong.

But that advice applies to everyone, not just this pastor's friend.

quoheleth wrote:But the hubby is such a doped up boozer that I doubt, seriously, that pepper spray, et. al., will phaze him much.

frazzled wrote:

quoheleth wrote:Need some feedback on this situation at church.

A woman at church is in the middle of a nasty separation. Her husband moved out but frequently enters the home when she's away at work. As the house is jointly theirs (divorce is not even begun) the cops have told her, basically, unless he physically threatens her she cannot even get a restraining order. She can change the locks, but as it's his house too, he legally can break in -- just like if he locked himself out of the house.

This first part is not accurate, at all.
She needs to consult with a divorce attorney specializing in nutjobs and do the things Sarge1208 said immediately.

Can you elaborate on what you think is inaccurate?

I just followed a friend through a rather unconventional separation and divorce, and his experience was exactly what quoheleth stated: unless there is a restraining order, official order of separation, or other court-issued ruling, a married couple in Texas has equal rights to the marital home.

In my friend's case, he pulled a reversi: he had moved out, but had a locksmith change the locks. Childish? Yeah, but there was a lot of that on both sides. It also proved his point to his (now)-Ex that it was still legally his house too.

Texas is a community property state. A house owned in marriage is owned by both partners. Unless there is a court order to the contrary, both partners have equal rights to the house. No matter how much the other party dislikes it.

TROs can be procured for a variety of things where abuse is alleged. The victim does not have to be divorced.

Really it boils down to 2 options

Stay out of it

Let her stay at your house

Pretty much all you can do. What would really stink, is if they got back together in a couple of months and the guy thinks you were putting the moves on his wife

Mike1951 wrote:Why not just a conventional stun gun? I can think of several ways that holding a stun gun that looks like a pistol could go wrong.

Yeah, like if you pull that on someone like me, you just might be stricken with a sudden case of severe lead poisoning.