17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[sjfcontrol]

...you'd have to debate that with my Momma...who's a whole lot wiser than you or I...she'd tell me "if you hadn't have been where you shouldn't have been, you wouldn't be in trouble"...seems pretty wise to me...if you can't admit that if he'd done either what his NW training/regulations said to do(and not do) or not done what the dispatcher told him not to do (and he said OK to)...there would have been no opportunity for EITHER to "first break the law"...it's pointless to continue...so I won't...

Sigh.. according to the recording of his phone call, he DID stop following Martin when the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that". He was watching out for his neighborhood. Not "where he shouldn't have been".

But we've all been thru all this before -- I'm not going to go through it again. We'll see how things turn out.

[speedsix]

...for those who want the FACTS...the 911 recording does NOT say that Z stopped following...merely that he said OK...the prosecutor's affidavit restates what was said weeks ago...Z CONTINUED TO FOLLOW M for some time after being told not to...correct facts help us to reach correct conclusions...even if they upset our opinions... http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/04/12/ge ... ppearance/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interacti ... idavit.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...and Z was watching out for his neighborhood until he stepped out of his vehicle to follow M...THEN he began to play police...

[baldeagle]

Rhetoric and opinions aside, would any of this have happened if Zimmerman had done what the Dispatcher told him to do? One guy is dead and the other will probably wish he was before it's over. ITMT, our CHL's and Florida's "Stand Your Ground Law" have drawn much unwelcome scrutiny and unfavorable attention from an otherwise "sleeping dog".

That "sleeping dog" would have been awakened at some point. If not Zimmerman, some other case.

[speedsix]

..."don't start none and there won't BE none" surely applies here...

[baldeagle]

...getting kicked out of school or having a no-drug policy did not precipitate anything that happened that day...the sun came up that day, too...but only one who wasn't willing to assign responsibility for poor choices would use that kind of example...Z CLEARLY did what I said he did...and if he'd just been a good citizen and made the phone call then left...there would have been no encounter...what he chose to do in following and playing the sleuth/cop/whatever put him on a collision path with M...when he exited his vehicle to follow, he ordered up trouble...and got it...

And by the same token, if Martin had simply run home and gotten in the house, nothing would have happened.

Two can play this game. Neither man's actions were wrong up until an assault occurred.

[speedsix]

...neither man's actions were ILLEGAL until an assault occurred...THAT is accurate...

...Z's actions from the hangup with 911 until the confrontation were, by all knowledge available to him from the police dispatcher (which he agreed to by saying OK) and from his training/regulations as a NW volunteer... WRONG...


...according to Z's own words...nothing Martin was doing before the confrontation was wrong...or illegal...

[chasfm11]

Rhetoric and opinions aside, would any of this have happened if Zimmerman had done what the Dispatcher told him to do? One guy is dead and the other will probably wish he was before it's over. ITMT, our CHL's and Florida's "Stand Your Ground Law" have drawn much unwelcome scrutiny and unfavorable attention from an otherwise "sleeping dog".

That "sleeping dog" would have been awakened at some point. If not Zimmerman, some other case.

In the "no crisis can go to waste" culture of the Left, they just wait and pounce at each event. Some (like the Sanford one) work better than others (like the Lochner shooting) at advancing the political agenda. They will always try, however.

[RPB]

Saw Zimmarman's bloody bruised head in the picture taken on i-phone within 3 minutes after the assault, before he was cleaned up on the news released today, kind of graphic so I'm not posting it here.

[Keith B]

Saw Zimmarman's bloody bruised head in the picture taken on i-phone within 3 minutes after the assault, before he was cleaned up on the news released today, kind of graphic so I'm not posting it here.

The link was already posted here http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 80#p665897" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[57Coastie]

I hope I will be forgiven for suggesting an accommodation here. I strongly suspect that many of us, including myself, might be occasionally confusing morality with legality. What is legal is not always moral, and vice versa.

As Mr. Bumble says in Charles Dickens' Oliver Twist, "... the law is a [sic] ass...." With my apologies to the lawyers in the crowd, Mr. Bumble is often right. (I would speculate that the lawyers in the crowd might be the first to agree with Mr. Bumble.)

I have truly tried to limit my input on the Zimmerman case to questions of legality, not morality. I will try harder.

Jim

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.—John F. Kennedy

[ScooterSissy]

...neither man's actions were ILLEGAL until an assault occurred...THAT is accurate...

...Z's actions from the hangup with 911 until the confrontation were, by all knowledge available to him from the police dispatcher (which he agreed to by saying OK) and from his training/regulations as a NW volunteer... WRONG...


...according to Z's own words...nothing Martin was doing before the confrontation was wrong...or illegal...

sorry, but that doesn't jibe with the testimony given today:

During further questioning by O'Mara, Gilbreath admitted that the state has no evidence who started the fight. There is also no evidence that Zimmerman didn't walk back to his car after chasing Martin on foot, as the defendant has claimed.

Sounds like not only does Zimmerman claim he was walking back to the car, the state acknowledges they have no evidence to the contrary.

[recaffeination]

...you'd have to debate that with my Momma...who's a whole lot wiser than you or I...she'd tell me "if you hadn't have been where you shouldn't have been, you wouldn't be in trouble"...seems pretty wise to me...

Very wise.

One of the men was in the neighborhood where he lived. He was a responsible member of society who had a respectable job until the racist death threats started.

One of the men was 250 miles from where he lived. Not because he was on vacation but because he was kicked out of school for not being a responsible member of society. He might have had a "job" as a burglar or drug dealer, but he wasn't doing so good at his job as a student. Academic and multiple disciplinary problems.

The two men got into a fight. I dnt know who started the fight but their recent pasts offer some interesting clues for people who feel compelled to guess.

[speedsix]

...neither man's actions were ILLEGAL until an assault occurred...THAT is accurate...

...Z's actions from the hangup with 911 until the confrontation were, by all knowledge available to him from the police dispatcher (which he agreed to by saying OK) and from his training/regulations as a NW volunteer... WRONG...


...according to Z's own words...nothing Martin was doing before the confrontation was wrong...or illegal...

sorry, but that doesn't jibe with the testimony given today:

During further questioning by O'Mara, Gilbreath admitted that the state has no evidence who started the fight. There is also no evidence that Zimmerman didn't walk back to his car after chasing Martin on foot, as the defendant has claimed.

Sounds like not only does Zimmerman claim he was walking back to the car, the state acknowledges they have no evidence to the contrary.

...if that testimony proves true, that will change what I said about Z following after being told not to......and weaken the affidavit...but not what I said about him playing police by leaving his vehicle and following and chasing M...an accurate timeline may never be proven...early on, it was reported that he followed M till he lost sight of him...another surprise...

[ScooterSissy]

...if that testimony proves true, that will change what I said about Z following after being told not to......and weaken the affidavit...but not what I said about him playing police by leaving his vehicle and following and chasing M...an accurate timeline may never be proven...early on, it was reported that he followed M till he lost sight of him...another surprise...

I haven't seen anything (other than outrageous speculation) that says anything similar to Zimmerman "chasing" Martin. According to Zimmerman, he was following, while on the phone to 911, and stopped when told to it was not needed.

I may agree with you that getting out of his car wasn't a good idea. I will not agree with you that doing so, while on the phone with a 911 operator, is somehow "playing police". As a matter of fact, I'll put forth that such descriptions are deliberate attempts to make it appear that Zimmerman was somehow doing something wrong.

You know, there are some that will assert that anytime we carry, that we're "playing police". The assertion doesn't make it so.

[speedsix]

...in the first weeks of this ordeal, we were told that Z continued to follow M several minutes after the dispatcher told him they didn't need for him to do that...that's how it got put into the affidavit...and it remains to be seen if it really happened that way or if that detective today was accurate with his answers...listening to the 911 tape, you can hear Z huffing and puffing and out of breath as he tells the dispatcher that "he's running"...and that's when the dispatcher asks if he's following M... and he admits that he is...
...if YOU were on the phone to 911, carrying with CHL, and got out of your car to follow M, and chased him, as you were giving a description, direction, and location...you MAY or MAY NOT have been "playing police"...however, my describing that is NOT" a deliberate attempt to make it appear that Z was somehow doing something wrong"...it is a clear ACCUSATION that Z was SURELY doing something wrong...because he was a Neighborhood Watch captain...and he had been trained NOT to follow,chase, or confront...merely to observe and report...making NO contact with a suspicious person...that is why it was wrong for him for sure...and only MIGHT have been wrong for someone not trained in that manner...it has nothing to do with his carrying under CHL...it's all about him doing what he knew not to do...thereby creating the whole situation wherein a confrontation and the events following could play out....