17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[sjfcontrol]

In the police report Zimmerman said he was screaming for help. He had no way to know it was being recorded. The cries for help I think are his as it fits exactly with his statement.

Or...Zimmerman knew Martin was screaming for help and he wanted to make it appear that it was him to validate his self defense claim.....so he told LEO he was screaming for help instead of Martin.


Jusster

He wasn't even being questioned when he said it. It was a spontaneous utterance. Who would come up with that so fast? I wouldn't.

I am pretty sure that zimmerman was getting the insides kicked out of him when he fired, but I want to know why zimmerman was so close to Martin after 911 told him to stop pursuit and he said "ok"

Because Martin circled around and came up behind him. Martin approached Zimmerman to attack him.

And that would be pure speculation on your part……


Jusster

No, that would be what Zimmerman said, and it matches with part of the overheard conversation by Martins girl friend.

[Jusster]

The eyewitness testimony probably trumps any voice testing anyway. So not sure that voice testing on the 911 calls would even be considered relevant or come into evidence in a trial.

I think this case will come down to forensic evidence. Eyewitnesses will play a very small role.


Jusster

That's possible, but even the forensic evidence tends to be in Zimmerman's favor. All the same, a direct eye witness would be very hard to refute. You would have to attack the witness's reliability. By that, I don't necessarily mean his character, although it could be that too. You'd have to prove that from his claimed vantage point, he couldn't possibly have seen what was going on.....or prove that he wasn't wearing his glasses, or if he was wearing them, that the prescription was out of date (My Cousin Vinny), or that his windows were too dirty to see out of....whatever. But unless you can unseat the witness's reliability, I think his testimony will play a bigger part than you think it will. The defense doesn't have to prove innocence. Because of the court's presumption of innocence, the job of the defense is to cast doubt on the prosecution's case. A direct eyewitness who is reliable woud go a long way toward that goal, it would seem to me, and at least from what we've seen in the press, it seems as if most of the evidence released to the public by both the police and Zimmerman's representatives (the only valid sources) tend to support Zimmerman's version of the story.

Even the mortician who handled Martin's body offers an opinion in favor of Martin, which is based on evidence that could just as easily support Zimmerman as it could Martin. He said there were no other marks on Martin's body. Well, that would tend to support the idea that it was Zimmerman who was getting the snot knocked out of him. The mortician said that Martin had been shot in the chest. Well so what? It's not hard to imagine that a struggle over the gun (which is what Zimmerman claims was happening when he shot Martin) could still result in a chest wound just as easily as a stomach or groin wound. If there is any powder stippling, that would prove that the shot was fired at contact distance, which would still be supported by a scenario in which Martin is on top of Zimmerman, who is on his back, and there is a struggle over the gun which Martin is trying to take away from Zimmerman.

In the end, here's what's going to happen: Zimmerman is going to be acquitted, but he'll be financially ruined. And then Martin's family is going to file a wrongful death lawsuit against Zimmerman—which is not subject to the same burden of proof, being a civil case—and they are going to try and punish Zimmerman for the rest of his life by financially crippling him even further. How do we know this? We know this because those opposed to Zimmerman are calling for his arrest, DEAD or alive, even though he was already arrested. We know because Al Sharpton is involved, and he'll raise the legal funds to try and cook Zimmerman's goose, and he hates white folk. We know because the media is going to spin the story to help them win their suit. We know it because there are very few honest people of decent character left in the country, and this is exactly the kind of blood lust they're begging for.

That's what's going to happen.

I do agree with you for the most part TAM…..BUT….”John” only claims to see Martin on top of Zimmerman for a few moments. “John” did not see how the fight started. “John” does not know if Zimmerman actually managed to gain the upper hand while “John” went inside to call 911. In fact “John” did not see what was happening when the actual shot was fired. I think I read that “Johns” statement was that he saw them wrestling on the ground. Zimmerman was yelling for help...he told "him" to stop and he was calling 911.

You have other eyewitnesses who state they saw Zimmerman on top of Martin at the time the shot was actually fired.

There is also a new eyewitness who claims they saw the whole thing. I’m not really sure of the details because I just skimmed over it this morning but I believe he or she said the same thing.

I agree the mortician’s observations are irrelevant. The medical examiners findings will be what matters and none of us know what those reports say. As far as who was on their back at what time is still up in the air. I still believe there are qualified individuals in this country who are able to evaluate the stippling on both Martin and Zimmerman (his shirt/Jacket) to determine if it is feasible that the shooting happened as Zimmerman claims. We are not in disagreement here really, but if the findings show that Zimmerman’s arms were extended he may have a problem.

I will surely not make any claims now that I know what the outcome of this case will be, though I do believe Zimmerman will be charged. Things change every day as far as new information goes and none of us know what exactly the DA has in their files. We can only guess to our beliefs based on the limited information that we have. Yes, I disagree with the tactics of some so called “leaders”, but that doesn’t mean that because I think their tactics are wrong that I will automatically give Zimmerman a pass either. There are way too many contradictions to his story and the only way to solve that is for him to be judged by his peers.


Jusster

[Jusster]

No, that would be what Zimmerman said, and it matches with part of the overheard conversation by Martins girl friend.

No it doesn't......the only part of their stories that match "kind of" is that Martin asked Zimmerman why he was following him. And I stand by what I said, just because Zimmerman said it, doesn't make it true....


Jusster

[Jusster]

In the police report Zimmerman said he was screaming for help. He had no way to know it was being recorded. The cries for help I think are his as it fits exactly with his statement.

Or...Zimmerman knew Martin was screaming for help and he wanted to make it appear that it was him to validate his self defense claim.....so he told LEO he was screaming for help instead of Martin.


Jusster

He wasn't even being questioned when he said it. It was a spontaneous utterance. Who would come up with that so fast? I wouldn't.

I am pretty sure that zimmerman was getting the insides kicked out of him when he fired, but I want to know why zimmerman was so close to Martin after 911 told him to stop pursuit and he said "ok"

Zimmerman had plenty of time to think about what he wanted to say after the shooting while he was walking around scratching his head with a confused look on his face as some witnesses have said.


Jusster

[sjfcontrol]

No, that would be what Zimmerman said, and it matches with part of the overheard conversation by Martins girl friend.

No it doesn't......the only part of their stories that match "kind of" is that Martin asked Zimmerman why he was following him. And I stand by what I said, just because Zimmerman said it, doesn't make it true....


Jusster

Martin came up from behind Zimmerman, asked him if he had a problem, Zimmerman said, "No", and Martin said "You do now!" and punched him in the nose, knocking him to the ground. It makes as much sense, or more, than the other explanations.

Believe whatever you want to believe.

[psijac]

In the police report Zimmerman said he was screaming for help. He had no way to know it was being recorded. The cries for help I think are his as it fits exactly with his statement.

Or...Zimmerman knew Martin was screaming for help and he wanted to make it appear that it was him to validate his self defense claim.....so he told LEO he was screaming for help instead of Martin.


Jusster

He wasn't even being questioned when he said it. It was a spontaneous utterance. Who would come up with that so fast? I wouldn't.

I am pretty sure that zimmerman was getting the insides kicked out of him when he fired, but I want to know why zimmerman was so close to Martin after 911 told him to stop pursuit and he said "ok"

Because Martin circled around and came up behind him. Martin approached Zimmerman to attack him.

And that would be pure speculation on your part……


Jusster

Think of it this way: You are walking down the street talking on the phone with your girlfriend when you realize a 200 pound man is following you. Do you:

A. Hang up and call the police.
B. Let Al Sharpton spread human waste all over your grave for fun and profit

[philip964]

This event sort of points out, if your involved in a righteous shooting, you need to make sure you take photographs yourself of your injuries, save your clothes etc. as it may be important later on should things change.

The opposite I guess would also be true as, I personally know of a story where a business partner was murdered by persons unknown. His partner and their secretary discovered the body, the partner being an ex corpsman, initiated CPR.

He obviously contaminated the scene with himself. He was of course not arrested, or suspected at the time. He went home and rather than really disposing of his clothes, he threw them in the trash at home. Later security footage showed him to be a suspect. A warrant was quickly received and they retrieved them from the trash. Analysis showed "high velocity" blood droplets on his clothes. He was convicted.

[Jusster]

No, that would be what Zimmerman said, and it matches with part of the overheard conversation by Martins girl friend.

No it doesn't......the only part of their stories that match "kind of" is that Martin asked Zimmerman why he was following him. And I stand by what I said, just because Zimmerman said it, doesn't make it true....


Jusster

Martin came up from behind Zimmerman, asked him if he had a problem, Zimmerman said, "No", and Martin said "You do now!" and punched him in the nose, knocking him to the ground. It makes as much sense, or more, than the other explanations.

Believe whatever you want to believe.

Really? Why does it make more sense? It's as you said, you choose to believe what you want to believe....but as I've stated in my reply to you already, your version of the events is pure speculation and that is a fact. I'll just leave it at that until you have facts to backup your claim.


Jusster

[Jusster]

Think of it this way: You are walking down the street talking on the phone with your girlfriend when you realize a 200 pound man is following you. Do you:

A. Hang up and call the police.
B. Let Al Sharpton spread human waste all over your grave for fun and profit

I'm confused, what did your response have to do with the discussion you quoted?
Sorry, I had to delete them because of too many quotes but feel free to point out what exactly you were replying too.

Jusster

[psijac]

Think of it this way: You are walking down the street talking on the phone with your girlfriend when you realize a 200 pound man is following you. Do you:

A. Hang up and call the police.
B. Let Al Sharpton spread human waste all over your grave for fun and profit

I'm confused, what did your response have to do with the discussion you quoted?
Sorry, I had to delete them because of too many quotes but feel free to point out what exactly you were replying too.

Jusster

He told his girlfriend at 7:12 "I think this dude is following me."
7:13 Zimmerman says "S---, he's running."
7:15 Zimmerman hangs up with the police having lost trayvon.

If Trayvon had called the police anytime in those three minutes we would have a very different picture of what was going on. Why didn't he call the police? What did he have to gain by not calling the police. Die he think he could handle George by himself, if that is the case why did he feel compeled to run away from him? A good persons instinct should always be call the police

[sjfcontrol]

No, that would be what Zimmerman said, and it matches with part of the overheard conversation by Martins girl friend.

No it doesn't......the only part of their stories that match "kind of" is that Martin asked Zimmerman why he was following him. And I stand by what I said, just because Zimmerman said it, doesn't make it true....


Jusster

Martin came up from behind Zimmerman, asked him if he had a problem, Zimmerman said, "No", and Martin said "You do now!" and punched him in the nose, knocking him to the ground. It makes as much sense, or more, than the other explanations.

Believe whatever you want to believe.

Really? Why does it make more sense? It's as you said, you choose to believe what you want to believe....but as I've stated in my reply to you already, your version of the events is pure speculation and that is a fact. I'll just leave it at that until you have facts to backup your claim.


Jusster

You are entitled to your own opinions -- but not your own "facts".

[Dave2]

If Trayvon had called the police anytime in those three minutes we would have a very different picture of what was going on. Why didn't he call the police?

Perhaps he realized that he was in a situation where seconds counted and knew the police were minutes away?

[Jusster]

No, that would be what Zimmerman said, and it matches with part of the overheard conversation by Martins girl friend.

No it doesn't......the only part of their stories that match "kind of" is that Martin asked Zimmerman why he was following him. And I stand by what I said, just because Zimmerman said it, doesn't make it true....


Jusster

Martin came up from behind Zimmerman, asked him if he had a problem, Zimmerman said, "No", and Martin said "You do now!" and punched him in the nose, knocking him to the ground. It makes as much sense, or more, than the other explanations.

Believe whatever you want to believe.

Really? Why does it make more sense? It's as you said, you choose to believe what you want to believe....but as I've stated in my reply to you already, your version of the events is pure speculation and that is a fact. I'll just leave it at that until you have facts to backup your claim.


Jusster

You are entitled to your own opinions -- but not your own "facts".

I wasn't stating my opinion....I was stating a "fact".....b. or c. would fit just fine.

spec·u·la·tion (spky-lshn)
n.
a. Contemplation or consideration of a subject; meditation.
b. A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture.
c. Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition.


Jusster

[ScooterSissy]

In the police report Zimmerman said he was screaming for help. He had no way to know it was being recorded. The cries for help I think are his as it fits exactly with his statement.

Or...Zimmerman knew Martin was screaming for help and he wanted to make it appear that it was him to validate his self defense claim.....so he told LEO he was screaming for help instead of Martin.


Jusster

And bashed his own skull and broke his own nose, and convinced a witness the he was on bottom being beat? Interesting ...

You know, maybe it WAS Martin screaming for help, because he needed some homies to help further bash Zimmermans skull...

[psijac]

If Trayvon had called the police anytime in those three minutes we would have a very different picture of what was going on. Why didn't he call the police?

Perhaps he realized that he was in a situation where seconds counted and knew the police were minutes away?

You are entitled to your own opinions -- but not your own "facts".

I wasn't stating my opinion....I was stating a "fact".....b. or c. would fit just fine.

spec·u·la·tion (spky-lshn)
n.
a. Contemplation or consideration of a subject; meditation.
b. A conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture.
c. Reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition.


Jusster

Then why did he stop running? a 17 year old skinny kids like that should have been able to out run a 200 pound 5'9" 29 year old and keep out running him all the way back to the house he was staying at. There is no way Zimmerman could have caught up if Trayvon didn't want that to happen. Though trayvon easily could have snuck up on zimmerman

Also I think the girlfriend isn't telling the whole truth