The saying goes, from my racing days, "There are lots of old riders and lots of bold riders, but there are no old bold riders." That being said, the bikes themselves are no so much dangerous as the road in which you ride them is dangerous. Dress and ride accordingly.Wildscar wrote:I ride too and there is a saying that I have found to be true among almost all bikers from Harley riders that you can hear from a mile away to the crazy guys on crotch rockets that blitz by you on the HWY and are gone before you even knew they where they in the first place. There are those that have wrecked and those that will. It not a question of if but it’s when and how hard it’s going to be. But for almost all of these riders the thrill outweighs the danger.
KBCraig, even on older lighter bikes, you ARE counter steering them, even if you don't realize it. As I explained above, when you lean, you are shifting the center of your mass approximately 90º perpendicular to the center of mass of the bike. That causes you to, consciously or not, apply some pressure against the inside handlebar, and hold the bar there until the turn is nearly complete and you desire to return to the vertical. At that point, the counter steering is in the opposite direction. It's exactly the same for bicycles. The only difference between your leaning, and my deliberate counter steering is the vigor with which it is done; but the physics of the thing dictate that no motorcycle can be steered without counter steering input. Counter-steering is not to be confused with being "crossed up."
An old acquaintance of mine, Keith Code, who was famous for teaching people to ride fast, had the following challenge to motorcycle riders:
In fact, for gregthehand's purposes, counter steering to the point of being crossed up becomes even more important. If you simply lean a motorcycle over in the dirt, you're going to go all the way down to the dirt. In the dirt, you have to take steps to keep the bike more upright, unless you are hauling the mail and have a berm against which to turn. You have two fundamental choices. One is to ride the bike slowly, like you would a bicycle. The other, somewhat counter intuitively, requires you to initiate the turn with a handlebar input, then gas up the motor a little bit to break the back wheel loose so that the back wheel describes an arc that is outside the arc of the front wheel. That is the condition that is called "crossed up." This enables you keep the bike more upright and less likely to lowside at speed. Actually, this is the same technique used for going fast around a paved road course - which is one of the reasons why I was never even close to being the fastest rider in my club. I found getting crossed up at 150 mph to be a little too intimidating.Keith Code, who runs the excellent California Superbike School, figured the best way to end the debate was a demonstration. He built a bike he calls the “No bull Machine� where he installed an extra set of handle bars. The bars are solid mounted to the frame, they do not move the front wheel in any way but are simply a place for your hands with a throttle to maintain speed. Riders are then given an opportunity to try turning the bike with any amount of leaning, weight transfer or body english they desire so long as they are holding on to the solid mounted bars. The result? The bike continues forward in an uninterrupted straight line. It may wobble or do any number of weird things but it doesn’t turn.
Keith Code never mentions anything like gyroscopic precession to explain any of it, he simply says here’s the demonstration. He leaves the technical debate to others.
Crossed up dirt racer
So even if you're just dawdling along, you still can't steer a motorcycle without a counter steering input, even if you don't realize you're doing it.
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