17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[speedsix]

...don't be throwin' out yer candy wrappers as you're passin' through...


...hey, Oldgringo...wouldja quit with the callin' fer the locking of the thread??? some of us're too poor to have a TV...

[psijac]

If your head stayed in the vehicle where it belonged, it wouldn't get bashed on the ground.

This proves manslaughter, not Murder in the Second Degree

[The Mad Moderate]

And how does one look high. Especially on MJ, could he see his eyes were red all the way from the car? Did he smell it? Or did he just suspect it because he looked like a "thug"?

TM didn't just smoke MJ. He also used "sizzurp", a combination of Arizona Watermelon Tea, Skittles and Robitussin that makes you high. When mixed with MJ it can have unexpected effects similar to PCP. If you don't have any experience dealing with people high on drugs (I do), you might not recognize the signs. There are numerous signs that can be easily picked up from a reasonable distance; fidgety movements, constant meaningless motions of the hands, arms and legs, frequently dropping things, wandering aimlessly, gazing for lengthy periods of time at fixed objects, impaired coordination, chain smoking, etc., etc.

As was said most of those are not a solid indicator of impairment. Second I do not know where you got your definition but syrup afaik is codeine and is either mixed with a drink or in some cases used as a coating on a blunt. Third I have lots of experience around people who are under the influence of various drugs and from a distance it is near impossible to tell if someone is high.

PS
The mixture you describe is cough syrup with some things added for flavor, alcoholics are know to drink nyquil to get a buzz. And from my personal experience I can tell you mixing MJ with otc cough syrup does not have ANY effects similar to PCP.

[Dragonfighter]

If your head stayed in the vehicle where it belonged, it wouldn't get bashed on the ground.

This proves manslaughter, not Murder in the Second Degree

Oldgringo,

It's been 60 something pages (I think) since i felt compelled to comment.

As I said back then, "stupid is not illegal". And I thank God for that or I would have been put away decades ago. GZ's head "belonged" anywhere he was legally allowed to be. It was HIS neighborhood, he was neighborhood watch (whatever extra responsibility that entails) and he was observing and reporting. That much is established fact.

Was it a tactical error? Certainly, hindsight being 20/20 but if I were to try and imagine myself in GZ's shoes, I would not necessarily see it as a tactical error at the time. This given the notation that TM was "suspicious" not violent at the time GZ saw him. Also, and I'd bet a soda that GZ knew this, an overwhelming majority of "suspicious" types will cease whatever they're doing once they know they are being observed and that would motivate some of us to do just what GZ did, let the guy know he was being watched and call 911.

Now whatever TM's state of intoxication was, instead of going on about HIS business getting to where he "belonged" (or for that matter verbally challenging GZ) he opted to violently engage GZ and now he's dead and another man's life is ruined for all intents and purposes.

Many, many responses on this thread reiterate that yes, getting out of the car was a tactical error and I agree...in hindsight. But this trend in placing blame for the incident on a man doing what was legal and going above the norm in watching his neighborhood is truly disturbing. May you never have to answer for a mistake like George Zimmerman and may you not be blamed as you and many others have done. As for me, "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

@psijac - I would contend that getting out of the car proves nothing in the way of criminality on GZ's part. The FACT that TM is dead with a bullet from GZ's weapon proves homicide, but the criminality (if any) lives elsewhere.

[Dragonfighter]

<SNIP>
As was said most of those are not a solid indicator of impairment. Second I do not know where you got your definition but syrup afaik is codeine and is either mixed with a drink or in some cases used as a coating on a blunt. Third I have lots of experience around people who are under the influence of various drugs and from a distance it is near impossible to tell if someone is high.

Then our experiences are vastly divergent. After 25 years in fire-rescue I can tell you honestly that I can tell at a glance if someone is under the influence of any number of intoxicants and do so with a high degree of accuracy, day or night and at good distances. Admittedly some are more obvious than others. For the record I am pretty good at spotting a person in DKA, hyperkalemia or hypoglycemia as opposed to being intoxicated.

[Keith B]

<SNIP>
As was said most of those are not a solid indicator of impairment. Second I do not know where you got your definition but syrup afaik is codeine and is either mixed with a drink or in some cases used as a coating on a blunt. Third I have lots of experience around people who are under the influence of various drugs and from a distance it is near impossible to tell if someone is high.

Then our experiences are vastly divergent. After 25 years in fire-rescue I can tell you honestly that I can tell at a glance if someone is under the influence of any number of intoxicants and do so with a high degree of accuracy, day or night and at good distances. Admittedly some are more obvious than others. For the record I am pretty good at spotting a person in DKA, hyperkalemia or hypoglycemia as opposed to being intoxicated.

Bingo Dragonfighter, you are a trained professional; Zimmerman was not. Zimmerman was at a distance and in his vehicle when on the phone and made statements that he looked high, so without specific training, in the rain, and in his vehicle he would not be able to tell IMO.

Now, mamabearcali, you say he may have been paranoid after smoking marijuana, even without anything influencing you, if you are walking trough a neighborhood where you belong, like Martin was, and someone you don't know starts following you, wouldn't you get nervous about it too? Most people would run, call the police, etc. Martin called his girlfriend and didn't listen to her about calling the police, then apparently decided he would hide out and once Zimmerman was on foot and got close, he decided to take on Zimmerman (if it really happened as Zimmerman said.) If anything the kid just thought he was tough and was going to fight. There is video of him fighting on YouTube. IMO he just used poor judgment and took on a man with a gun who used it on him.

[mamabearCali]

Now, mamabearcali, you say he may have been paranoid after smoking marijuana, even without anything influencing you, if you are walking trough a neighborhood where you belong, like Martin was, and someone you don't know starts following you, wouldn't you get nervous about it too? Most people would run, call the police, etc. Martin called his girlfriend and didn't listen to her about calling the police, then apparently decided he would hide out and once Zimmerman was on foot and got close, he decided to take on Zimmerman (if it really happened as Zimmerman said.) If anything the kid just thought he was tough and was going to fight. There is video of him fighting on YouTube. IMO he just used poor judgment and took on a man with a gun who used it on him.

As it happens I have stood precisely where Martin stood. When I was 20 (just three years older than him), I was at my university and was followed and verbally harangued by a man. I ran to a populated place, called the police then called my bf (now my husband). That man one week later attacked and killed a woman.

The older teen (I still say a ten year old is kid, a 17 year old is nearly a man), decided instead of being smart he would assault a person and instead of just punching him and leaving he beat his head on the ground. Keith are you going to lie there on the ground and get beaten to death because you tried to get a better location on someone acting suspicious so the police could stop them? I doubt it.

[Keith B]

As it happens I have stood precisely where Martin stood. When I was 20 (just three years older than him), I was at my university and was followed and verbally harangued by a man. I ran to a populated place, called the police then called my bf (now my husband). That man one week later attacked and killed a woman.

The older teen (I still say a ten year old is kid, a 17 year old is nearly a man), decided instead of being smart he would assault a person and instead of just punching him and leaving he beat his head on the ground. Keith are you going to lie there on the ground and get beaten to death because you tried to get a better location on someone acting suspicious so the police could stop them? I doubt it.

You are twisting this all around and trying to play it into a similar situation as yours. It's differernt. You were not following that man, but he was following you. You made the right choice and ran to a more safe place. Luckily it was not you that he killed.

I think you believe I am saying Zimmerman was wrong for shooting Martin; I am not. I am saying IF it happened as Zimmerman said and Martin attacked him, then Zimmerman had justifiable grounds to defend himself up to the point of using lethal force. No one is saying differently here on the forum. What is being said is 'IF' Zimmerman had stayed in his car, this would have played out differently and there's a 99.9% chance Martin would be alive and Zimmerman would not being going through all of this. Yes, Zimmerman was totally within his legal right to get out and walk around in his neighborhood, and even follow Martin, but it wasn't smart. So, you have too 'men' that did stupid things; one ended up paying for it with his life, and the other might as well have with all of the mud he is being drug through.

Now, if the situation was NOT as Zimmerman claims, then there are way too many variables that NONE of us know and can make a decision on. Those will have to come out in the trial before I will form an opinion on who was justified or not.

[mamabearCali]

Of course if Z had not decided to go to the store that night, if Z had not seen TM, if TM had decided to take a nap that night, if if if if if. It will all come out at trial and hopefully the truth will out and no amount of prosecutorial shenanigans will be able to stop it.

I disagree on Zimmerman being as good as dead. As bad as Zimmerman has it, at the end of this, he is very likely to be found not guilty and then he can change his name, move, and watch his children and grandchildren grow up. Had he been beat to death that night none of that would even be possible right now.

[Oldgringo]

TAM and I will probably go on neighborhood watch together. The rest of y'all be careful on your watches.

[speedsix]

...I've installed this real neat periscope/camera under my bed...with a 360 degree motor...I'm good...

[Keith B]

...I've installed this real neat periscope/camera under my bed...with a 360 degree motor...I'm good...

Don't you have a water bed speedsix?

[speedsix]

...I forgot to tell you about the snorkel...

[sugar land dave]

...I've installed this real neat periscope/camera under my bed...with a 360 degree motor...I'm good...

Ooops! You reversed the installation instructions. It is supposed to go above the bed and through the roof, like mine.

[speedsix]

...I saw that model...but then I'd have to come out from under the bed...not an option...