Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
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Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
A number of years ago, I had a team of folks working for me in Hampton Roads, VA. We all flew in from across the US each week, and my team consisted of folks from Texas, Virginia, Illinois, and Connecticut, among other places.
Given our travel schedule (fly in on Monday morning, fly home on Friday afternoon, four nights in a hotel, four days of a car rental), we had a bit of flexibility. Once, one of my guys said to me, "instead of flying home to Connecticut this weekend, I'll stay here. WIll you cover the hotel bill for the extra three days? A quick bit of math allowed me to see that he would be saving me $$ by not going home for the weekend, so of course, the answer was, "Yes".
Monday morning, the team gathered together, and I asked how the weekends went. My Connecticut guy was excited. He'd driven all around the area, visited Kitty Hawk, and visited other historical places. His most interesting comment was that he thought it was odd how many Confederate flags he saw around. "I thought those were illegal?!?" he stated. (no, he was not a kid...he was in his 40's).
"No, they're not illegal. Why would they be?" I asked.
"Because of slavery".
I smiled and explained. "No, but I understand your confusion. You've probably been told all your life that the Confederate Battle flag was a symbol of slavery and hatred of black people. However, for those of us that grew up down here...it just means we hate Yankees!" I went on to explain that, "where he grew up, there are a lot of references to the Revolutionary War, but down here, we still remember the War of Northern Aggression. That flag is a symbol of Southern pride, not of hatred - well, except hatred of yankees, of course!" (I said with a smile on my face)
It was that simple...and he understood it so easily. Why is it that nobody does now?
Nah, don't answer that question. I know the answer already. I just needed to rant.
For the record, I fly the US flag on my front porch 364 days a year. The only day that I don't is on the 9th of April each year. I don't fly any flag on that day - and it has NOTHING at all to do with race.
Given our travel schedule (fly in on Monday morning, fly home on Friday afternoon, four nights in a hotel, four days of a car rental), we had a bit of flexibility. Once, one of my guys said to me, "instead of flying home to Connecticut this weekend, I'll stay here. WIll you cover the hotel bill for the extra three days? A quick bit of math allowed me to see that he would be saving me $$ by not going home for the weekend, so of course, the answer was, "Yes".
Monday morning, the team gathered together, and I asked how the weekends went. My Connecticut guy was excited. He'd driven all around the area, visited Kitty Hawk, and visited other historical places. His most interesting comment was that he thought it was odd how many Confederate flags he saw around. "I thought those were illegal?!?" he stated. (no, he was not a kid...he was in his 40's).
"No, they're not illegal. Why would they be?" I asked.
"Because of slavery".
I smiled and explained. "No, but I understand your confusion. You've probably been told all your life that the Confederate Battle flag was a symbol of slavery and hatred of black people. However, for those of us that grew up down here...it just means we hate Yankees!" I went on to explain that, "where he grew up, there are a lot of references to the Revolutionary War, but down here, we still remember the War of Northern Aggression. That flag is a symbol of Southern pride, not of hatred - well, except hatred of yankees, of course!" (I said with a smile on my face)
It was that simple...and he understood it so easily. Why is it that nobody does now?
Nah, don't answer that question. I know the answer already. I just needed to rant.
For the record, I fly the US flag on my front porch 364 days a year. The only day that I don't is on the 9th of April each year. I don't fly any flag on that day - and it has NOTHING at all to do with race.
Your best option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
When those fail, aim for center mass.
www.HoustonLTC.com Texas LTC Instructor | www.Texas3006.com Moderator | Tennessee Squire | Armored Cavalry
When those fail, aim for center mass.
www.HoustonLTC.com Texas LTC Instructor | www.Texas3006.com Moderator | Tennessee Squire | Armored Cavalry
Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
History is written by the victors.
The primary basis of the war was the northern manufacturers resented the lucrative trade the south had with Europe.
Out law slavery = sell more farm implements.
The primary basis of the war was the northern manufacturers resented the lucrative trade the south had with Europe.
Out law slavery = sell more farm implements.
“In the world of lies, truth-telling is a hanging offense"
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Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
I hate to disagree with you guys, but the war was over slavery. The southern states seceded because they correctly believed that the Republicans intended to abolish slavery. Everyone at that time believed that. And as soon as the Republicans took office they passed a bill intended to emancipate the slaves, The First Confiscation Act of 1861. It is a matter of historical record that the act contained an Emancipation Clause, which was gutted by Congress. The War of Northern Aggression.
The first act of the war was the attack on Fort Sumter. South Carolina believed that a Federal fort on their coast was a threat to their independence. Lincoln believed it would be a tacit acknowledgment of South Carolina's independence to abandon the fort, so he ordered immediate reinforcement. The Confederate Army asked the occupants to surrender. They refused, so South Carolina began bombarding the fort and thus the war began. The First Shot of the Civil War The Surrender of Fort Sumter, 1861
South Carolina seceded in Dec 1860, before Lincoln had even been sworn into office. Fort Sumter was attacked in April, 1861. The First Confiscation Act was passed in August, 1861. All eleven states had seceded by June, before the act was passed.
If you read South Carolina's Declaration of Causes of Seceding, slavery is mentioned 38 times, including this:
The first act of the war was the attack on Fort Sumter. South Carolina believed that a Federal fort on their coast was a threat to their independence. Lincoln believed it would be a tacit acknowledgment of South Carolina's independence to abandon the fort, so he ordered immediate reinforcement. The Confederate Army asked the occupants to surrender. They refused, so South Carolina began bombarding the fort and thus the war began. The First Shot of the Civil War The Surrender of Fort Sumter, 1861
South Carolina seceded in Dec 1860, before Lincoln had even been sworn into office. Fort Sumter was attacked in April, 1861. The First Confiscation Act was passed in August, 1861. All eleven states had seceded by June, before the act was passed.
If you read South Carolina's Declaration of Causes of Seceding, slavery is mentioned 38 times, including this:
I think it's abundantly clear what the cause of the Civil War was - the Republicans wanted to abolish slavery and were willing to use every means they could employ to succeed. The southern states did not want slavery abolished and chose to leave the Union rather than submit to the government.The Presidential election of 1852 resulted in the total overthrow of the advocates of restriction and their party friends. Immediately after this result the anti-slavery portion of the defeated party resolved to unite all the elements in the North opposed to slavery and to stake their future political fortunes upon their hostility to slavery everywhere. This is the party two whom the people of the North have committed the Government. They raised their standard in 1856 and were barely defeated. They entered the Presidential contest again in 1860 and succeeded.
The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.
The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. James Madison
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Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
For historical perspective:
So from 1776 to 1861, slavery was legal in the USA. That is 85 yrs of legal ownership of slaves. What did the constitution mention about slavery?
Why the issue was not addressed for so long? Did the northern states have slaves?
So from 1776 to 1861, slavery was legal in the USA. That is 85 yrs of legal ownership of slaves. What did the constitution mention about slavery?
Why the issue was not addressed for so long? Did the northern states have slaves?
Beiruty,
United we stand, dispersed we falter
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Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
You are not disagreeing with me. I made no statement about the cause of the war. If I were to do so, I might say that it was about imposition of federal law vs. states' rights to self-govern. But I did not say that.baldeagle wrote:I hate to disagree with you guys, but the war was over slavery. The southern states seceded because they correctly believed that the Republicans intended to abolish slavery. Everyone at that time believed that. And as soon as the Republicans took office they passed a bill intended to emancipate the slaves, The First Confiscation Act of 1861. It is a matter of historical record that the act contained an Emancipation Clause, which was gutted by Congress. The War of Northern Aggression.
The first act of the war was the attack on Fort Sumter. South Carolina believed that a Federal fort on their coast was a threat to their independence. Lincoln believed it would be a tacit acknowledgment of South Carolina's independence to abandon the fort, so he ordered immediate reinforcement. The Confederate Army asked the occupants to surrender. They refused, so South Carolina began bombarding the fort and thus the war began. The First Shot of the Civil War The Surrender of Fort Sumter, 1861
South Carolina seceded in Dec 1860, before Lincoln had even been sworn into office. Fort Sumter was attacked in April, 1861. The First Confiscation Act was passed in August, 1861. All eleven states had seceded by June, before the act was passed.
If you read South Carolina's Declaration of Causes of Seceding, slavery is mentioned 38 times, including this:I think it's abundantly clear what the cause of the Civil War was - the Republicans wanted to abolish slavery and were willing to use every means they could employ to succeed. The southern states did not want slavery abolished and chose to leave the Union rather than submit to the government.The Presidential election of 1852 resulted in the total overthrow of the advocates of restriction and their party friends. Immediately after this result the anti-slavery portion of the defeated party resolved to unite all the elements in the North opposed to slavery and to stake their future political fortunes upon their hostility to slavery everywhere. This is the party two whom the people of the North have committed the Government. They raised their standard in 1856 and were barely defeated. They entered the Presidential contest again in 1860 and succeeded.
The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.
I only stated what the flag stands for now (for me, and for a great any people where I grew up). It is a Southern pride thing. That is all.
Your best option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
When those fail, aim for center mass.
www.HoustonLTC.com Texas LTC Instructor | www.Texas3006.com Moderator | Tennessee Squire | Armored Cavalry
When those fail, aim for center mass.
www.HoustonLTC.com Texas LTC Instructor | www.Texas3006.com Moderator | Tennessee Squire | Armored Cavalry
Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
My post was accurate. Abolishing slavery was simply an means to an end. If it was as claimed about slavery, why did Lincoln wait 3 years into the war before ending it? It wasnt a morality play, it was a war tactic. He did it with the hope that the slaves would revolt against the south.baldeagle wrote:I hate to disagree with you guys, but the war was over slavery. The southern states seceded because they correctly believed that the Republicans intended to abolish slavery. Everyone at that time believed that. And as soon as the Republicans took office they passed a bill intended to emancipate the slaves, The First Confiscation Act of 1861. It is a matter of historical record that the act contained an Emancipation Clause, which was gutted by Congress. The War of Northern Aggression.
The first act of the war was the attack on Fort Sumter. South Carolina believed that a Federal fort on their coast was a threat to their independence. Lincoln believed it would be a tacit acknowledgment of South Carolina's independence to abandon the fort, so he ordered immediate reinforcement. The Confederate Army asked the occupants to surrender. They refused, so South Carolina began bombarding the fort and thus the war began. The First Shot of the Civil War The Surrender of Fort Sumter, 1861
South Carolina seceded in Dec 1860, before Lincoln had even been sworn into office. Fort Sumter was attacked in April, 1861. The First Confiscation Act was passed in August, 1861. All eleven states had seceded by June, before the act was passed.
If you read South Carolina's Declaration of Causes of Seceding, slavery is mentioned 38 times, including this:I think it's abundantly clear what the cause of the Civil War was - the Republicans wanted to abolish slavery and were willing to use every means they could employ to succeed. The southern states did not want slavery abolished and chose to leave the Union rather than submit to the government.The Presidential election of 1852 resulted in the total overthrow of the advocates of restriction and their party friends. Immediately after this result the anti-slavery portion of the defeated party resolved to unite all the elements in the North opposed to slavery an to stake their future political fortunes upon their hostility to slavery everywhere. This is the party two whom the people of the North have committed the Government. They raised their standard in 1856 and were barely defeated. They entered the Presidential contest again in 1860 and succeeded.
The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.
The intent to abolish slavery was not one of morality, but of economics. We had two diverse economies. One fueled by the industrial revolution & one driven by agriculture. The south didnt need the north, but the north needed the south and feared it becoming a more powerful international player.
The south was shipping tons of cotton to Europe, & the ships were returning with European manufactured goods.
The northern manufacturers couldnt compete. So, having an advantage in the House, the northern representatives passed protective tariffs on imported goods. The industrialized northern majority in congress was an adversary to the rural southern states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_1833The Tariff of 1833 was ultimately abandoned in favor of the Black Tariff of 1842, and protectionism was reinstated. Average tariff rates nearly doubled from the initial 20% target for 1842 to about 40%, and the percentage of dutiable goods jumped from about 50% of all imports to over 85% of all imports. For some goods, such as those made with iron, the import tax constituted about two thirds of the overall price of the good. Unsurprisingly, the impact of the Black Tariff of 1842 was immediate: as the cost of imports jumped, there was a sharp decline in international trade in 1843.
Research Nullification Crisis & Tariff or 1842.
Europe threaten to slap tariffs on US manufactured goods & the US removed the tariffs. The tariffs make it clear that the intent was to sell goods to the south.
So when the tariffs failed, the yankees decided to attack the issue of slavery (under the guise of morality). It was the republican industrialists who financed the abolitionists. (Today it is OPEC funding the anti frackers for the similar reasons)
You can bet that if the northern states had a use for slaves, slavery would have continued for years.
“In the world of lies, truth-telling is a hanging offense"
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Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
History...
"By this time Lincoln had decided on an even more dramatic measure: a proclamation issued as commander in chief freeing all slaves in states waging war against the Union. As he told a member of his cabinet, emancipation had become “a military necessity…. We must free the slaves or be ourselves subdued…. The Administration must set an example, and strike at the heart of the rebellion.” The cabinet agreed, but Secretary of State William H. Seward persuaded Lincoln to withhold the proclamation until a major Union military victory could give it added force. Lincoln used the delay to help prepare conservative opinion for what was coming. In a letter to journalist Horace Greeley, published in the New York Tribune on August 22, 1862, the president reiterated that his “paramount object in the struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery.”
http://www.history.com/topics/american- ... oclamation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"By this time Lincoln had decided on an even more dramatic measure: a proclamation issued as commander in chief freeing all slaves in states waging war against the Union. As he told a member of his cabinet, emancipation had become “a military necessity…. We must free the slaves or be ourselves subdued…. The Administration must set an example, and strike at the heart of the rebellion.” The cabinet agreed, but Secretary of State William H. Seward persuaded Lincoln to withhold the proclamation until a major Union military victory could give it added force. Lincoln used the delay to help prepare conservative opinion for what was coming. In a letter to journalist Horace Greeley, published in the New York Tribune on August 22, 1862, the president reiterated that his “paramount object in the struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery.”
http://www.history.com/topics/american- ... oclamation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
Yes sir. Slaves of 5 Union States were not freed by The Emancipation Proclamation no matter how many people want you to believe it.Beiruty wrote:For historical perspective: Did the northern states have slaves?
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Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
And I disagree with you. Yes a variety of states did not want slavery abolished because it would irrevocably damage their economies, but many of those same states were willing and ready, and even starting, to "phase out" slavery. One big issue was that the industrialized north was increasingly "ruling" over the agricultural based south, kind of a macro version of NY City ruling the rest of the state. which has led to secession efforts in NY State several times, or like Chicago's machine politicians ruling the rest of the state, which would be a geographical nightmare to secede from.baldeagle wrote: . . .
I think it's abundantly clear what the cause of the Civil War was - the Republicans wanted to abolish slavery and were willing to use every means they could employ to succeed. The southern states did not want slavery abolished and chose to leave the Union rather than submit to the government.
I grew up in a family with deep roots on both sides of the line, my "Aunt" (who was really a much older cousin) Ruth ALWAYS described "the late lamented war" as https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/08/the- ... ggression/. I got lectures from northern grandparents and southern grandparents to whom the was was a very recent memory, my paternal grandmother's father was a Union soldier, but her "lessons" on the root causes of the war were what I would consider very balanced. One of the things my "Gram" used to point out was that although the politicians on both sides generated the war, the vast majority of those who actually fought it were not slave holders themselves and were fervent believers that what they fought for was indeed the rights of their states to self determine rather than be ruled by the north.
My Texas born and bred "Grandpappy" (mother's father) was equally "fair" in his treatment of the issue, his father having fought for the south and become a "refugee" from northern justice. My maternal grandmother was perhaps the most prejudicial in her treatment of the issue, and she was raised in England, her viewpoint was that the north was entirely in the wrong, even though her native England had pretty much phased out slavery before our rebellion began, she saw the issue as one that could be resolved by less radical means, as England had done.
And consider that the states that were not "in rebellion" did not get slavery outlawed, and it was even practiced commonly, until well after the 13th Amendment was rolled out. At first it looked as though the 13th would be ratified by 18 states, leaving out the "states in rebellion" and forcing them to accept the amendment in order to be able to rejoin the union. Of course Virginia and Louisiana ratified in the first go 'round, and many of the other rebel states only ratified after their governments were "reconstructed" for them, ensuring ratification.
In December of 1865 Secretary of State Seward certified that the amendment had passed due to ratification by 27 of the 36 existing states, and only then did slavery officially cease to exist, although the word did not spread very well because it was still practiced, to some extent, in California and parts of Texas.
It is also somewhat interesting to note, as part of the overall picture, that Mississippi, Kentucky, NEW JERSEY!, and DELAWARE! ALL rejected the amendment the first time around, with NJ ratifying in 1866, Delaware delayed until 1901, Kentucky finally decided to break down and ratify in 1976, and Mississippi in 1995, but not certified as ratified as such until just two years ago.
In any case, and in my view, while the various issues surrounding slavery were among the root causes of the rebellion, there were so many other issues that to lay the blame solely on on slavery is naive at best, and disingenuous to boot. Just as the causes of the American Revolution can hardly be ascribed to a single issue, the causes of the War of Northern Aggression were many and varied.
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Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
Actually, slavery was legal in the states that were not in rebellion until December of 1865. Many of the northern states did indeed have slavery, Connecticut had a thriving agrarian economy that was supported by slavery, In NY state some of the very large farms (not as large as Texas ranches to be sure, but very large) depended on slave labor that was eventually replaced by migrant workers. And as an aside, it is a well hidden secret that the migrant workers who harvest crops all over the county live in conditions that are functionally equal today to what slaves lived in back then.Beiruty wrote:For historical perspective:
So from 1776 to 1861, slavery was legal in the USA. That is 85 yrs of legal ownership of slaves. What did the constitution mention about slavery?
Why the issue was not addressed for so long? Did the northern states have slaves?
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Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
I was kinda thinking that slavery was legal under the Stars and Stripes for 89 years while under the Stars and Bars for around 5 years. Nothing in that statement except a Flag means what folks want it to mean. I was raised to view the Stars and Bars with kinship, while the Stars and Stripes are my Country's flag. Even folks like me and mine have a heritage and an ethnicity. We do not have a cognitive dissonance between supporting both Colors. Take the Stars and Bars down, I still won't forget them and what I believe they stand for.
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Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
Very well put. Thank you. I'm a 5th generation Texan(on my dad's side), and I can remember my Grandmother relating stories from HER mother(on my mom's side) about how, as a young girl they fled Georgia to Clay County during the War of Northern Agression when Gen. Sherman was cutting his scorch & burn policy of his March To The Sea throughout the South. There was no need for it. The South was effectively beaten. It was retribution.DEB wrote:I was kinda thinking that slavery was legal under the Stars and Stripes for 89 years while under the Stars and Bars for around 5 years. Nothing in that statement except a Flag means what folks want it to mean. I was raised to view the Stars and Bars with kinship, while the Stars and Stripes are my Country's flag. Even folks like me and mine have a heritage and an ethnicity. We do not have a cognitive dissonance between supporting both Colors. Take the Stars and Bars down, I still won't forget them and what I believe they stand for.
And that rememberance was still alive and well when I was growing up in Forth Worth and Clay County back in the late 1940's, 1950's an into the 60's. It was not so much about slavery(as much as an abomination as it was), as it was about keeping a mostly agrarian society economically depressed by supplying farm machinery & equipment manufactured by the more industrialized North to the non-industrialized South, for the benefit of the Northern States.
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Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
States Rights
Chance favors the prepared. Making good people helpless doesn't make bad people harmless.
There is no safety in denial. When seconds count the Police are only minutes away.
Sometimes I really wish a lawyer would chime in and clear things up. Do we have any lawyers on this forum?
There is no safety in denial. When seconds count the Police are only minutes away.
Sometimes I really wish a lawyer would chime in and clear things up. Do we have any lawyers on this forum?
Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
I recall being in high school on a band trip. As a joke, some friends covered another black friend's eyes and held up a confederate flag behind him. When he saw it he jokingly tore it out of their hands, laughing the whole time. I remember wondering what the joke was. I had a confederate flag hanging in my room, and never once considered it a statement on race (and I grew up in a very racist home). It was always a symbol of southern pride to me. Still is today. I do choose not to put one on my vehicle because I don't want to be perceived as something I'm not, but I think people are creating a problem where there mostly isn't one.
Similarly, I am a Cajun. Not just a guy from South Louisiana, but my grandparents were French speaking, true decedents of Nova Scotia. There is a slang term that Cajuns use referring to each other - coonass. I wear that name as a badge of honor as as it is my heritage as a Cajun. Admittedly, it's an odd sounding name, but nothing that any Cajun I know is offended by. If there were a Cajun flag, I'd fly it with pride too.
Similarly, I am a Cajun. Not just a guy from South Louisiana, but my grandparents were French speaking, true decedents of Nova Scotia. There is a slang term that Cajuns use referring to each other - coonass. I wear that name as a badge of honor as as it is my heritage as a Cajun. Admittedly, it's an odd sounding name, but nothing that any Cajun I know is offended by. If there were a Cajun flag, I'd fly it with pride too.
Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
Amen Brother!PaJ wrote:
I am a Cajun. Not just a guy from South Louisiana, but my grandparents were French speaking, true decedents of Nova Scotia. There is a slang term that Cajuns use referring to each other - coonass. I wear that name as a badge of honor as as it is my heritage as a Cajun. Admittedly, it's an odd sounding name, but nothing that any Cajun I know is offended by. If there were a Cajun flag, I'd fly it with pride too.
Chance favors the prepared. Making good people helpless doesn't make bad people harmless.
There is no safety in denial. When seconds count the Police are only minutes away.
Sometimes I really wish a lawyer would chime in and clear things up. Do we have any lawyers on this forum?
There is no safety in denial. When seconds count the Police are only minutes away.
Sometimes I really wish a lawyer would chime in and clear things up. Do we have any lawyers on this forum?