17y/o Killed By Neighborhood Watch/CHL

[OldCannon]

...FOX just reported it's going to a Grand Jury...

Without all of the facts maybe I should not speculate what actually happened, but I predict that Mr. Zimmerman will be indicted.

Double yes. There's no doubt this is a GJ case, and the evidence suggests a premeditation to aggressive conduct (although if they push this as a murder case, they're gong to have a hard time with it)

[puma guy]

...FOX just reported it's going to a Grand Jury...

Without all of the facts maybe I should not speculate what actually happened, but I predict that Mr. Zimmerman will be indicted.

WB I believe you are correct. The phone conversation of Trayvon Martin to the girl is almost like a "dying confession" in my humble opinion. It seems to be an indictment of the shooter. The incompetence of Sandford PD in their investigation of this is a mystery to me. I am tempted to believe Mr. Zimmerman has a guardian angel on the force, especially with his assault of a police officer being dropped back in 2004. They didn't do a blood alcohol on him either, which was baffling to an investigator who thought he was impaired listening to the call to Sanford PD.

[Beiruty]

...FOX just reported it's going to a Grand Jury...

Without all of the facts maybe I should not speculate what actually happened, but I predict that Mr. Zimmerman will be indicted.

WB I believe you are correct. The phone conversation of Trayvon Martin to the girl is almost like a "dying confession" in my humble opinion. It seems to be an indictment of the shooter. The incompetence of Sandford PD in their investigation of this is a mystery to me. I am tempted to believe Mr. Zimmerman has a guardian angel on the force, especially with his assault of a police officer being dropped back in 2004. They didn't do a blood alcohol on him either, which was baffling to an investigator who thought he was impaired listening to the call to Sanford PD.

The conversation with his 16-yr old girlfriend was not recorded. How do we know that his girlfriend is not biased and was not lead to say what she is saying?

[stroo]

I think Zimmerman got the benefit of being seen as a good guy by the police. He called in reporting a BG and was part of neighborhood watch. So the LEOs saw him as the good guy. Massad Ayoob has written about this effect and I believe Charles in class mentions it as well.

So one lesson here is that if anything hinky is going on call 911. It may help you be seen as the good guy if something happens. As this situation demonstrates, that is a huge initial advantage.

[puma guy]

...FOX just reported it's going to a Grand Jury...

Without all of the facts maybe I should not speculate what actually happened, but I predict that Mr. Zimmerman will be indicted.

WB I believe you are correct. The phone conversation of Trayvon Martin to the girl is almost like a "dying confession" in my humble opinion. It seems to be an indictment of the shooter. The incompetence of Sandford PD in their investigation of this is a mystery to me. I am tempted to believe Mr. Zimmerman has a guardian angel on the force, especially with his assault of a police officer being dropped back in 2004. They didn't do a blood alcohol on him either, which was baffling to an investigator who thought he was impaired listening to the call to Sanford PD.

The conversation with his 16-yr old girlfriend was not recorded. How do we know that his girlfriend is not biased and was not lead to say what she is saying?

We don't. I guess I'll give her the benefit of the doubt since the timing fits (confirmed by NBC News). I'm sure she'll be called to testify under oath. The fact that he was on the phone all the while according to the 16 year old girl including while he was going to the store lends a lot of creedence (to me at least) that Zimmerman was the aggressor. I'd bet a dollar to a dime he's indicted. JMHO

[Jusster]

...FOX just reported it's going to a Grand Jury...

Without all of the facts maybe I should not speculate what actually happened, but I predict that Mr. Zimmerman will be indicted.

WB I believe you are correct. The phone conversation of Trayvon Martin to the girl is almost like a "dying confession" in my humble opinion. It seems to be an indictment of the shooter. The incompetence of Sandford PD in their investigation of this is a mystery to me. I am tempted to believe Mr. Zimmerman has a guardian angel on the force, especially with his assault of a police officer being dropped back in 2004. They didn't do a blood alcohol on him either, which was baffling to an investigator who thought he was impaired listening to the call to Sanford PD.

Took them long enough though. Some heads in that PD will surely role for this.

After the new information about the girlfriend saying Martin was in the middle of repeating "why are you following me" and in mid sentence an altercation broke out....my guess would be murder2


Jusster

[Beiruty]

it is all about changing the gun-laws, too many "kids" are killed:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=us_c1#/vi ... martin.hln" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[OldCannon]

it is all about changing the gun-laws, too many "kids" are killed:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=us_c1#/vi ... martin.hln" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't give a flip what CNN says, and good luck with them trying to influence this vote. Even most "liberal" politicians know that an anti-gun stance means re-election suicide.

[A-R]

I've heard an interesting legal theory by someone who has some legal training (but is not a practicing lawyer far as I know). This person says there is more than enough probable cause to arrest Zimmerman and charge him with assault under Florida law because by following (and assumably confronting) Martin, Zimmerman put Martin in reasonable fear of imminent danger and this constitutes assault. All of this argument is based on what happened BEFORE shot was fired or any assumed punches/whatnot were thrown.

EDITED TO ADD: I have always believed as most here do in NOT following a suspicious person, don't leave the house/car, call 911, but a good witness and all that - but believed this based on tactics and de-escalation. The above would seem to suggest following a suspicious person (who turned out to be innocent) could actually be a crime.

So legal eagles, lawyers, law enforcement .... what say you to this theory?

Quoting Florida assault statutes (and stalking statute for good measure) below for frame of reference:

Chapter 784
ASSAULT; BATTERY; CULPABLE NEGLIGENCE
784.011 Assault.—(1) An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
(2) Whoever commits an assault shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
History.—s. 5, Feb. 10, 1832; RS 2400; GS 3226; RGS 5059; CGL 7161; s. 1, ch. 70-88; s. 729, ch 71-136; s. 17, ch. 74-383; s. 7, ch. 75-298; s. 171, ch. 91-224.
Note.—Former s. 784.02.

Chapter 784
ASSAULT; BATTERY; CULPABLE NEGLIGENCE
784.048 Stalking; definitions; penalties.—(1) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.
(b) “Course of conduct” means a pattern of conduct composed of a series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of “course of conduct.” Such constitutionally protected activity includes picketing or other organized protests.
(c) “Credible threat” means a threat made with the intent to cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear for his or her safety. The threat must be against the life of, or a threat to cause bodily injury to, a person.
(d) “Cyberstalk” means to engage in a course of conduct to communicate, or to cause to be communicated, words, images, or language by or through the use of electronic mail or electronic communication, directed at a specific person, causing substantial emotional distress to that person and serving no legitimate purpose.
(2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
(3) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury of the person, or the person’s child, sibling, spouse, parent, or dependent, commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(4) Any person who, after an injunction for protection against repeat violence, sexual violence, or dating violence pursuant to s. 784.046, or an injunction for protection against domestic violence pursuant to s. 741.30, or after any other court-imposed prohibition of conduct toward the subject person or that person’s property, knowingly, willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(5) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks a minor under 16 years of age commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(6) Any law enforcement officer may arrest, without a warrant, any person he or she has probable cause to believe has violated the provisions of this section.
(7) Any person who, after having been sentenced for a violation of s. 794.011, s. 800.04, or s. 847.0135(5) and prohibited from contacting the victim of the offense under s. 921.244, willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks the victim commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(8) The punishment imposed under this section shall run consecutive to any former sentence imposed for a conviction for any offense under s. 794.011, s. 800.04, or s. 847.0135(5).
History.—s. 1, ch. 92-208; s. 29, ch. 94-134; s. 29, ch. 94-135; s. 2, ch. 97-27; s. 23, ch. 2002-55; s. 1, ch. 2003-23; s. 3, ch. 2004-17; s. 3, ch. 2004-256; s. 17, ch. 2008-172.

[philip964]

They had a whole show about it last night on HLN ( the show with the guy with glasses who is a doctor of some
kind)

He seemed to have a belief that this guy was a "Police wanabe" ( he used the c word which I do not like )

That is my view as well. I think the public blame is not on CHL or guns but this issue.

[drjoker]

I just listened to the 911 call and the kid was clearly yelling, "help!" in a high pitched tone. Zimmerman is too big and old to emit such a high pitched whine. Only a skinny 17 yr old would yell for help like that. "help, bang, silence" is not self-defense. i just hope that this idiot doesn't cause a flurry of politicial activity that will end up taking away our right to carry licenses for all of us law abiding citizens. an idiot like this ruined gun rights in Australia, Britain, etc.

[74novaman]

I just listened to the 911 call and the kid was clearly yelling, "help!" in a high pitched tone. Zimmerman is too big and old to emit such a high pitched whine. Only a skinny 17 yr old would yell for help like that.

Yes, because all adult males have deep voices, children have high pitched voices, and women have girly voices, right?



The amount of people willing to convinct this guy when even the cops haven't found enough evidence to warrant an arrest is amazing to me.

[philip964]

It now made NPR they said Al Sharpton is now getting involved.
It's a race thing they seemed to be going for, not CHL.

[JackPatrick]

This thing gets worse all the time. If you haven't heard the 911 tape from the female homeowner, it is both horrifying and sad.

The voice repeatedly screaming "Help!" certainly sounds like that of a young boy, but Zimmerman claims it was him.

Earlier in this thread, references were made to the difficult nature of this case i.e. "Shooter claims self defense, other party is dead.... What are the police supposed to do?" Could someone please help me out with the law here? Isn't self defense an "affirmative defense"? In other words, in order to claim self defense, the burdon of proof is 100% on you. Is that correct? It seems like there is growing evidence, especially in the form of eyewitnesses, that all point to this guy going to jail.

If Mr. Zimmerman believed Mr. Martin was a threat, wouldn't he put as MUCH distance between himself and the young man as possible? Why would he get out of his vehicle? Why would he give chase? People keep citing the FL law that talks about not having to flee, "standing your ground", etc, but that seems completely irrelevant in this situation. Mr. Martin was fleeing and Mr. Zimmerman was chasing him. He admitted to that on the 911 tape. I'm not suggesting following someone is a crime, but again, put this in the context of "my life was in danger!" defense.

I try to keep an open mind but.... sheesh.... prayers for the Martin family.

[bayouhazard]

If the girl is telling the truth why didn't she come forward a month ago? If she is telling the truth, why didn't she call her boyfriend's mama when she heard what she said she heard? Even the next day to see if he was OK when he didn't return her calls as a concerned girlfriend?

Very strange timing. Exactly when the case against GZ is falling apart, she suddnly remembers a phone conversation from a month ago.

I guess it could have happened like she says.