Are you a culture-less barbarian?

[b322da]

In general I have found that people who consider themselves cultured are simply subscribing to a very specific vision of "political correctness"....

With respect, I find that is a rather condescending and arrogant statement, although not surprising here. At least I am pleasantly surprised that the word "elitist" has not surfaced yet.

Elmo

[Hoi Polloi]

In general I have found that people who consider themselves cultured are simply subscribing to a very specific vision of "political correctness"....

With respect, I find that is a rather condescending and arrogant statement, although not surprising here. At least I am pleasantly surprised that the word "elitist" has not surfaced yet.

Elmo

Honest question: how do you find it arrogant? I know a lot of cultured people who wouldn't identify as being cultured, so saying that those who see themselves as cultured often mean they're politically correct doesn't come off as condescending to me, so I'm wondering how you read it.

[b322da]

Elmo. You rock!...

... And they paint anyone who could own a weapon as [relatively uneducated].

YOU ROCK TOO, HOI!!!

But, down and dirty, only because you asked for it:

Do not the numbers I reported with respect to educational level, as compared with the results of your poll so far, assuming of course that educational level is indeed meaningful when it comes to "culture" (not my suggestion), give you a little pause in making your broad impression? If the one factor I picked out does not "prove them wrong," is it not reasonable to think this conclusion might spread a little further, or perhaps even tend to "prove them right?" While our logical syllogisms differ here, are they not both rational?

Once again, I am not the one who suggests that educational level is related to one's "culture," which I would hesitate to define. I must assume that whoever drafted those questions makes that suggestion.

(Why do I decide to pick on one of our obviously most well-educated, well-spoken, knowledgeable and intelligent members).

I clearly deserve what I am going to get.

Elmo

[b322da]

In general I have found that people who consider themselves cultured are simply subscribing to a very specific vision of "political correctness"....

With respect, I find that is a rather condescending and arrogant statement, although not surprising here. At least I am pleasantly surprised that the word "elitist" has not surfaced yet.

Elmo

Honest question: how do you find it arrogant? I know a lot of cultured people who wouldn't identify as being cultured, so saying that those who see themselves as cultured often mean they're politically correct doesn't come off as condescending to me, so I'm wondering how you read it.

To answer your honest question, Hoi, with an honest answer and a minimum of words, the latter not easy for me to do:

"Differently."
PS: You are one of the few people here I would hesitate in getting into a debate with.

Elmo

[The Annoyed Man]

UT Dallas is hosting an art exhibit that seeks to educate the cultured people about the existence of barbaric weapons owners, claiming that the people of culture are not likely to come into contact with weapons owners because weapons owners aren't likely to be in the same geographic areas, social circles, work environments, or to attend any cultural events where the enlightened go.

That's such an absolute crock. I was raised by two humanities professors, and I own what I would call a lot of guns. In the 5 years I've lived in the DFW metroplex, I've made nearly as many trips to the Kimbell Art Museum as I have to the nearby Fort Worth Gun Show. In that same time span, I've visited the Dallas Museum of Art 3 times, and the Dallas Market Hall Gun Show exactly 0 times. My musical tastes are eclectic—more so than my cultured mother's. I speak more than one language. I am well traveled. I read voraciously, and I write. In fact, my love of writing is partly why I have such a high post count here. I just get a kick out of it.....and this isn't the only place I post.

Academics love to study conservatives like we are some kind of insect pinned to a board for their leisurely perusal, and then they put on these faintly mocking displays of "art" because the condescension makes them feel better about their own dried up puny souls. It's really such weak cheese because it requires no real thought on their part; no real intellectually rigorous challenge. By being dismissive, they excuse themselves from having to actually use their vaunted brains for anything more difficult than investigating which wine would best compliment a soufflé and a truffle salad.

Other than that, I have no problem with them.

[Hoi Polloi]

Elmo. You rock!...

... And they paint anyone who could own a weapon as [relatively uneducated].

YOU ROCK TOO, HOI!!!

But, down and dirty, only because you asked for it:

Do not the numbers I reported with respect to educational level, as compared with the results of your poll so far, assuming of course that educational level is indeed meaningful when it comes to "culture" (not my suggestion), give you a little pause in making your broad impression? If the one factor I picked out does not "prove them wrong," is it not reasonable to think this conclusion might spread a little further, or perhaps even tend to "prove them right?" While our logical syllogisms differ here, are they not both rational?

Once again, I am not the one who suggests that educational level is related to one's "culture," which I would hesitate to define. I must assume that whoever drafted those questions makes that suggestion.

(Why do I decide to pick on one of our obviously most well-educated, well-spoken, knowledgeable and intelligent members).

I clearly deserve what I am going to get.

Elmo

Ha ha ha. I'm not sure if I should consider that a compliment!

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that by stating, "See, weapons owners go to college, too!" that if the data showed they might go at a lesser rate than the general population that it would indicate they were less cultured and be counter productive. Is that accurate?

If so, I think it is a valid point. If I were trying to show that weapons owners were as "cultured" or moreso than the average population or than the people who identify as being cultured then it would potentially be directly contradictory.

However, the claim I understood the curators to be making was that "cultured" people were in completely different social circles (bubbles) which did not overlap with weapons owners so that they had zero knowledge or interaction with people from the weapons circles. Showing any overlap (college, art museums, musicians, foodies, band parents, concert goers, neighborhoods, work environments, etc, etc, etc) disproves their theory. Further, I believe that not only is there some overlap, but significant overlaps. I subjectively chose a list of places that I thought those who identify as cultured might be surprised to learn that the overlap exists (college, performing arts, etc, etc, etc) and therefore left off cultural places I thought they wouldn't be as surprised about (rural, religious, political, etc associations). It's quite possible that I misidentified their position on individual places as no scientific poll was done of people who identify as cultured before I put it up; however, on the point of colleges in particular I think I coincidentally have a little more proof than the others as the curators are hosting this exhibit in a place they state they believe does not have this overlap of cultured people and weapons owners and that place is on a college campus.

I'm trying to multitask, but am grateful for and enjoying the conversation so please let me know if I'm way off in left field.

[DoubleJ]

They are so "cultured" and read such wonderful works of literacy, but I guarantee you not of those hoplophobes has read To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak The Truth. And yet, they try to espouse this air of (oh, no, I'm gon' say it) elitism.

You see folks, this is what I'm surrounded by in the greater Seattle area. "Oh, you poor uneducated, country bumpkin and your antiquated ways."
My own girlfriend (don't any of you say a word) even wrote off my gun totin' ways as just some by-product of PTSD.
She later told me that the Bill of Rights was just "some guy's" ideas on what rights were...

this is the pervasive viewpoint up here. It makes mah head numb...

[Jasonw560]

Don't you need culture to grow bacteria and mold?

Seriously, I grew up upper middle class. Not rich, but acted like it. I know which fork one uses to eat salad vs the entree, I love almost all kinds of music (listening to one of Bach's concertos right now), I read voraciously, usually two to three books at one time. I understand Shakespeare. I am a published poet and columnist. My vocabulary sometimes befuddles my English-major wife. I can talk about a wide variety of subjects, and I like impressionism, more Van Gogh than Degas, Monet, or Seurat. And Hieronymus Bosch's paintings intrigue more more than many of the other Rennaisance painters.

I just don't feel a need to bring all of that to the forefront.

That's what I like, not who I am. I know the difference. And these pretentious sycophants to whatever cause celebre happens to be at present just reek of insecurity and banality.

Make me sick.

[b322da]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that by stating, "See, weapons owners go to college, too!" that if the data showed they might go at a lesser rate than the general population that it would indicate they were less cultured and be counter productive. Is that accurate?

Not really, Hoi. That is not what I said, but rather what was at least implied by the drafter of your questions, else why would the question be on the list? I tried to be careful to say that I did not personally state that the one was necessarily relevant to the other, although nor would I necessarily deny that they may have a relationship.

When I made my first comments here the numbers were in the neighborhood of 7% vs. 20+%. ( I hasten to say that I have not seen the latest forum numbers).

If one accepts the question's assumption that educational level is relevant to one's idea of being cultured, which, again, I neither affirm nor deny, then it directly follows that the comparative numbers we see must affect RPT affect RPT one's ultimate conclusion re: the "culture" of CHLers in a negative manner. I must of course again observe the unreliability of using only one of 18 factors.

I was not expressing a personal opinion here, Hoi, nor do I think it would be appropriate for me to do so. It is too personal a matter to either discuss nor, perish the thought, debate. And for goodness sakes, never ask me what "being cultured" means, and if I cannot define the basic question, how can I have a meaningful opinion?

I hope that clarifies my intentions.

Best regards,

Elmo

[The Annoyed Man]

The Dallas Museum of Art is posted?

Ooops....

It wasn't posted any of the times I've been there. At least not with a compliant 30.06 sign.

[The Annoyed Man]

When my dad died, my brother and I inherited two weapons from him. One was the Ithaca 1911A1 which was his sidearm in WW2. The other was an old single shot .22 bolt action rifle that had been his since he was a boy in the 1920s. Unlike most of those dilletantes and their "art" show, my dad actually had killed human beings with weapons, in combat.

Oh, and my dad had TWO Ph.Ds, one in American Literature, the other in English Literature. He was friends with John Steinbeck, William Faulkner, and Ernest Hemmingway......and he owned guns. He also spoke fluent French, by the way, AND, before he met my mom (in Paris), he was a painter, living in a garret in the Latin Quarter, upstairs from a jazz club, where he used to hang out and listen to Charlie "The Bird" Parker and Thelonius Monk.

I'll match his "culture" credentials against any of these boojwah wannabe culture creatures.

[pbwalker]

I just don't feel a need to bring all of that to the forefront.

EXACTLY! Why does any of it matter? If someone enjoys a White Zin out of a box over a 1999 Zin, that somehow makes them less of a person, or "uncultured"? I don't get the need for these "studies".

[Hoi Polloi]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that by stating, "See, weapons owners go to college, too!" that if the data showed they might go at a lesser rate than the general population that it would indicate they were less cultured and be counter productive. Is that accurate?

Not really, Hoi. That is not what I said, but rather what was at least implied by the drafter of your questions, else why would the question be on the list? I tried to be careful to say that I did not personally state that the one was necessarily relevant to the other, although nor would I necessarily deny that they may have a relationship.

When I made my first comments here the numbers were in the neighborhood of 7% vs. 20+%. ( I hasten to say that I have not seen the latest forum numbers).

If one accepts the question's assumption that educational level is relevant to one's idea of being cultured, which, again, I neither affirm nor deny, then it directly follows that the comparative numbers we see must affect RPT affect RPT one's ultimate conclusion re: the "culture" of CHLers in a negative manner. I must of course again observe the unreliability of using only one of 18 factors.

I was not expressing a personal opinion here, Hoi, nor do I think it would be appropriate for me to do so. It is too personal a matter to either discuss nor, perish the thought, debate. And for goodness sakes, never ask me what "being cultured" means, and if I cannot define the basic question, how can I have a meaningful opinion?

I hope that clarifies my intentions.

Best regards,

Elmo

Ah! OK, let me try again.

As for the poll, the percentage isn't the percentage of respondents who select that box but of how many checkmarks that box received in relation to total checkmark count. In other words, the percentage is pretty much worthless on this poll and the raw number is the only indicator of value. It also doesn't show how many respondents there are total. It isn't scientific, that's for sure!

I was the one who came up with the list. I agree with your point about why education (to take one thing off the list) supposedly correlates with being cultured or is something to be valued. It falls into the category of things I was referring to when I said, "I have a lot of other problems with the exhibit's write-up, but this one in particular stood out as I know it is easily and demonstrably wrong."

They assert: Cultured people (whatever that means to them) live in one bubble. Weapons owners live in a different bubble. Those bubbles don't overlap.
I assert: There's plenty of overlap between the bubbles, including in places they would be particularly surprised to find it (like colleges and art museums and whatever else they define as cultured).

I just took a stab at what they would define as cultured when coming up with my list. I used what I believed was their definition as I was attempting to debunk their assertion which relied on their definition. I believe they would include higher education on the list of attributes they would give to a "cultured" person. They specifically listed it as a place they respect and which does not have overlap with the weapons owners bubble. By including it, I do not ascribe to their definition or values relating to higher education equalling culture, but debunk their assertion.

Once this is debunked (which I believe it is as one can clearly see that weapons owners are at colleges and art shows and all these other places), I can move on to real points of conversation with them. Whether education or cultural sensitivity or attendance at art exhibits was correlated with, or even caused, peacefulness. Whether weapons ownership was correlated with or caused fetishims or obsessions with violence or even caused outright violence. These are the real issues they're engaging which, like you, I believe merit discussion. Whether the type of peacefulness they envision can be achieved and if so if it ought to be. That discussion can't be had if their basic assertions are preposterous (such as weapons owners and cultured people bubbles not interacting or overlapping).

Did I get it this time?

[Hoi Polloi]

Culture is as relevant to the subject of self-defense as vegetarianism.

New poll: Can vegetarians ethically shoot animals in self-defense?


I'm teasing!