Westboro Baptist Church

[jmra]

Two different issues here;

1. Legal - they did not break any laws. The dad rolled the dice by going to court which he was not complaining at all when he was getting millions. Now he's not so happy with the legal system.

2. Moral - these people are at best are misguided and at worst pure evil.

Bottom line - if we are to remain a free country (which could be debated) we can not legislate morality.

[E.Marquez]

There are few situations in life that cannot be solved with the use of overwhelming firepower and copious qualities of explosives. In the case of WBC, that is precisely what they want in a reaction from the opposing side. It makes good press. While the situation could be controlled with just one SKT, a more apparent solution is to require them to keep there demonstrations within the law, and then counter them with large numbers of opposition. Such as the Patriot Guard Riders do consistently. I have seen PGR generate a large enough turn out to literally blot out the WBC fools from view. So long as enough advance notice is given that WBC is going to be present, there are pleasantly of folks willing to step up and create a “barrier” between the families of our fallen, and WBC trash.

Vigilante justice will appease the minds and personal feeling of those opposed to WBC “gospel” for just a fleeting moment. The second and third order effects as we have recently in this court outcome will linger on for much longer and in the end, only the government and the lawyers win.

[lrb111]

talked to the wife about this
basically she said That as long as groups like this are around we can be pretty sure that Freedom is still alive.
The reasoning?
Because if we can let Horrible Hate spewing jerks like this run around without censorship than we are doing pretty good for the rest of us.
You think they let stuff like this happen in Iran or Saudi Arabia, how about China?

What about the right to Privacy? Abortion, and homosexuality are covered by Privacy rights.
How about libel and slander?
How about provocation from the Westboro crowd?

[marksiwel]

talked to the wife about this
basically she said That as long as groups like this are around we can be pretty sure that Freedom is still alive.
The reasoning?
Because if we can let Horrible Hate spewing jerks like this run around without censorship than we are doing pretty good for the rest of us.
You think they let stuff like this happen in Iran or Saudi Arabia, how about China?

What about the right to Privacy? Abortion, and homosexuality are covered by Privacy rights.
How about libel and slander?
How about provocation from the Westboro crowd?

Libel and Slander arent criminal charges (right?) you gotta take 'em to court and then its pretty hard.
Right to Privacy? As in at a public funeral? Ehhhhhhhh, kinda hard there. I still think they are scum and if it was a friend or family members of mine I would take the jail time just to beat the jerks. As for abortion and Gay Marriage, their are still plenty of Anti-Abortion Laws in Texas and be purposed to limit abortions every session in Texas, as for gays we still have laws on the books against it and they still cant get married/civil unioned in this state.

[The Annoyed Man]

And by the way, they are NOT "Baptists."

I was waiting for someone to say they're "not Christian" like the Flying Over The Cukoo's Nest guys. Saying they're not baptists is a twist. What's the deal? Do they not practice adult baptism? Is there something else that disqualifies them from being baptists other than being nut jobs?

Now I'm waiting for someone to say the Pope is not Christian.

They aren't Christian either (and I never said the Pope isn't a Christian). My problem with the use of the word "Baptist" is that the Southern Baptist Convention, of which my church is an affiliate, gets a "guilt by association" bad rap from people because WBC has the word "Baptist" in their name. But they are no more Baptist than they are Christian.

[marksiwel]

And by the way, they are NOT "Baptists."

I was waiting for someone to say they're "not Christian" like the Flying Over The Cukoo's Nest guys. Saying they're not baptists is a twist. What's the deal? Do they not practice adult baptism? Is there something else that disqualifies them from being baptists other than being nut jobs?

Now I'm waiting for someone to say the Pope is not Christian.

They aren't Christian either (and I never said the Pope isn't a Christian). My problem with the use of the word "Baptist" is that the Southern Baptist Convention, of which my church is an affiliate, gets a "guilt by association" bad rap from people because WBC has the word "Baptist" in their name. But they are no more Baptist than they are Christian.

I can start my own Church and call it "Baptist" that doesnt mean I have any association with the Southern Baptist Conventon, the Alliance of Baptist churches ect.

Now is the Westboro Baptist church a REAL Baptist church?
I'm staying out of that

[Oldgringo]

And by the way, they are NOT "Baptists."

I was waiting for someone to say they're "not Christian" like the Flying Over The Cukoo's Nest guys. Saying they're not baptists is a twist. What's the deal? Do they not practice adult baptism? Is there something else that disqualifies them from being baptists other than being nut jobs?

Now I'm waiting for someone to say the Pope is not Christian.

They aren't Christian either (and I never said the Pope isn't a Christian). My problem with the use of the word "Baptist" is that the Southern Baptist Convention, of which my church is an affiliate, gets a "guilt by association" bad rap from people because WBC has the word "Baptist" in their name. But they are no more Baptist than they are Christian.

Well, these Westboro Baptist guys absolutely believe that they are the chosen ones? What if they're right and the rest of us have to go down below? That would certainly be a revoltin' development!

[A-R]

And by the way, they are NOT "Baptists."

I was waiting for someone to say they're "not Christian" like the Flying Over The Cukoo's Nest guys. Saying they're not baptists is a twist. What's the deal? Do they not practice adult baptism? Is there something else that disqualifies them from being baptists other than being nut jobs?

Now I'm waiting for someone to say the Pope is not Christian.

They aren't Christian either (and I never said the Pope isn't a Christian). My problem with the use of the word "Baptist" is that the Southern Baptist Convention, of which my church is an affiliate, gets a "guilt by association" bad rap from people because WBC has the word "Baptist" in their name. But they are no more Baptist than they are Christian.

Well, these Westboro Baptist guys absolutely believe that they are the chosen ones? What if they're right and the rest of us have to go down below? That would certainly be a revoltin' development!

If they're right, then everything is wrong.

[LarryH]

Their zip code starts with 666. Coincidence?

I'm not going to touch the rest of this discussion, but will simply point out that I was stationed at zip code 66620 (the former Forbes AFB, just south of Topeka) in the late sixties. The vast majority of the people who live there are fine upstanding people that you would be proud to call friends.

[mymojo]

Using the grief of a family who lost a child in the service of our nation, a man you didnt even know, to further your political agenda.

That's just mean and hateful. (I seem to recall something about your right TO ends where my right FROM begins)

the gov't piling on the families misery.

That's just plain wrong.


And saying these guys aren't baptist is like saying the 911 hijackers weren't muslim. They may not sync up with our particular idea of what "baptist" means, that doesnt mean the term does not apply. This argument requires knowing what their core dogma and practices are.

[The Annoyed Man]

And saying these guys aren't baptist is like saying the 911 hijackers weren't muslim. They may not sync up with our particular idea of what "baptist" means, that doesnt mean the term does not apply. This argument requires knowing what their core dogma and practices are.

Respectfully, the single largest Baptist organization is the Southern Baptist Convention. The precepts of the SBC are pretty much mirrored by every other Baptist affiliation of churches. Here is a link to the SBC doctrinal details. By tradition, Baptist churches are affiliated with a larger convention, which enables the affiliated churches to pool resources for such things as funding missionary work, and governing missionary behavioral expectations, and stuff like that; but each individual church is responsible for its own church government. However, all of those affiliated churches must be in line with the teaching of the larger convention in order to be members of that convention. These general guidelines are true of pretty much all Baptists churches... ...except one: the WBC. The WBC does not follow the spiritual guidelines necessary to a Baptist church. They are not in affiliation with any other Baptist church.

The WBC is made up entirely of Fred Phelps, his children, their spouses, and their children. Most of the members do not hold down productive jobs because they are always traveling to new locations for protests. Nearly every penny of the church's revenues derive from lawsuits, the proceeds of which are used to fund their protest activities. They are in the truest form NOT a Christian church, and they are NOT Baptists. They are an income generation machine which makes good money from spewing a message of hatred and intolerance.

With all due respect, I don't think you have a complete understanding of exactly who WBC is and what they do, and I believe your understanding of the Baptist approach to church government to be incomplete, and for that matter, what it means to be a Christian. Baptists are Christians first, and anything else second. This is also true for members of pretty much any other Christian denomination. WBC "Baptists," on the other hand, are completely willing to deny anything Jesus said if it conflicts with anything they say. I have had this conversation with them, and I have heard their representatives do as much on the radio. In other words, as people who deny Christ when his words conflicts with their own message of hate, they are by definition not Christians, and therefore, not Baptists (nor Presbyterians or Lutherans or Methodists or Catholics or any other denomination of Christian).

Please understand that I am not trying to preach Christianity here. I am trying to clear up a misunderstanding which causes apostates like the WBC to be lumped into true Christianity. It is a categorical error to do so, and it would automatically invalidate any argument one would make on a claimed knowledge of what it is to be a Baptist, or any other kind of Christian, for that matter.

[iratollah]

I would post pictures of these hate monkeys from when they visited Houston in January, but it would violate forum decency requirements.

I monitored WBC at three locations and had a few interesting interactions with them and managed to frustrate some of their plans. They thrive on negative attention. At the Holocaust Museum they were completely shut down by motorcyclists revving their engines. That the bikers, (and this was not an official Patriot Guard Riders group), chose the Holocaust Museum memorial as the place to take a stand against these hate mongers speaks volumes to the character of those riders who came a very long distance on a very cold morning.

What made Shirley Phelps totally loose her cool was when a Christian with a Bible told her, "We forgive you." She went ape over that one, it was really amusing listening to her cursing and losing her composure over someone making a very Christian comment to this 'devout' and 'pious' creature. One of her daughters froze in contemplation when I asked her "Wouldn't you rather be shopping at the mall, my daughter will give you a ride and show you some cool stores." It's borderline child abuse how Phelps is raising her daughters to be so hateful.

WBC supports itself on lawsuits against people who obstruct their freedom of speech. They will videotape your response to them. They are highly organized and very sophisticated in knowing how far they can push the limits of the law.

These fine Americans pictured below took a stand against hate on a very cold morning. When WBC started spewing their venom, these riders turned their backs on them and started revving their engines to drown out the hate speech. The museum opened their doors early to provide hot coffee to the riders and about half of them stayed for a private museum tour. The docent told me it was one of the best groups he's taken through the museum and it was a moving experience for all. If any of you are interested in taking a group from your church or other organization on a tour of this museum, PM me and I'll arrange a private tour.

[bayouhazard]

And saying these guys aren't baptist is like saying the 911 hijackers weren't muslim. They may not sync up with our particular idea of what "baptist" means, that doesnt mean the term does not apply. This argument requires knowing what their core dogma and practices are.

It's one thing to say they're not affiliated with the SBC but there were baptist churches in America 200 years before the SBC formed by splitting from it's parent organization. There were baptist churches across the pond before the first one in America.

[bayouhazard]

talked to the wife about this
basically she said That as long as groups like this are around we can be pretty sure that Freedom is still alive.
The reasoning?
Because if we can let Horrible Hate spewing jerks like this run around without censorship than we are doing pretty good for the rest of us.
You think they let stuff like this happen in Iran or Saudi Arabia, how about China?

There are enough holes in that logic to sail a fleet through.

Gang bangers doing drive by shootings are not a good sign of freedom.

NJ has gang violence but that didn't stop NJ cops from hassling a traveler with a gun in his luggage when his flight was delayed.

[iratollah]

This group is about as Baptist as I am. No correlation whatsoever.