Rights vs Responsibilities

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seph
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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#16

Post by seph »

flechero wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:40 am
Aggie_engr wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:05 am
If you think the government has any interest in the least bit of your health and safety, my friend I would look up the definition of naive. With that being said, I agree with other members that we should be using our ability to think for ourselves and make rational decisions, not giving in to the media induced panic rhetoric that has caused most normal Americans to fall into full blown hysteria.




Your post is a handbook of how freedom loving Americans should approach situations like that which we find ourselves in lately.
Wow, your foil hat is tight.

I'm not giving in to the media, one of my good friends runs the ER at a major hospital... and several others are Dr's who are all in crisis mode right now, preparing for a worst case scenario.

I hope you and the other selfish and self important "freedom loving Americans" enjoy your dinners and a movie out, in exchange for endangering a segment of the population. You guys are coming off like a couple of spoiled 3 year olds... or OCT activists.
They are things our governments can and cannot do. Period.
Our governments is supposed to honor and uphold our Constitution at all times. They cannot just uphold it most of the time, and say oh, it's an emergency and put it on pause. Once done, it will always be done and soon we will always live in some kind of emergency. If we continue on this path, (people panicking / freaking out and our governments keeping stripping our liberties), I fear that the fall of our country as we know it is coming soon. That's what I fear over covid-19.

We, as Americans, can choose to reduce our activities outside our homes based on our risk to us and our family. But, we cannot be forced to as we have liberties that our governments CANNOT take away. Hearing mayors, county commissioners, and governors forcing people to close their business, forcing people not to leaving their homes, and not to peacefully assembly is a very scary thing to see now. Much more scary than an over hyped virus.

It is a fact that most everyone will get covid-19. It is just a matter of when. Even locking every american in their home will NOT stop it spreading. China did just that and it still spread like wild fire and still is spreading. If they were able to control it, all of their factories would be back open. It is also a fact that mostly everyone who has it will recover just fine with no hospitalization. A very small percentage of people will require hospitalization, and an even smaller percent will die. Catching covad-19 is not a death penalty!

What is also scary is seeing people on this forum (which is to educate and inform people about one of our most important liberties) ready to lay down and allow other very important liberties to be taken away.

Liberty once lost is lost forever.

I'm done with this thread and I'll see everyone in the future. We can hang out here and complain about what we surrendered during our panic, while comparing our two weeks of suffering though the symptoms of covid-19 (hint: fever and being bedridden due to being weak, oh and a cough), while pledging allegiance to the USSA (United Socialist States Of America) as we are required to.

</End rant>
Last edited by seph on Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Let's go Brandon! "rlol"

seph
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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#17

Post by seph »

Rob72 wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:22 pm As a healthcare worker, working directly on COVID, and a Type 1 diabetic x 47 years, I am not terribly interested in the "rights" of people to congregate and wank their jaws.

If you are symptomatic, you have probably been shedding virus for several days before you knew anything was going on.

Hoarding has caused critical shortages of basic personal protective equipment for front-line healthcare providers.

I do not live in fear, but I have worked with infectious diseases, of all sorts, for about 7 of my 27 years in healthcare.

I can pretty well guarantee that at some point, someone will have done, "whatever we wanted to do," which will spread infection to someone like me.

At some point, after seeing other, "someones like me," infected, someone like me will do violence. That is likely to be the start of the gun-grabbing-National-Guard-in-the-streets.

My question is: is having your recreation worth the life and/or well being of your older neighbor, people at church, your parents?

John Adams who observed, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
Yes, it is somewhat contagious before you have symptoms, but it is very contagious when you have symptoms. That is the most active time that you are shedding the virus. When the symptoms go away, so does most of the shedding. So, stay home when you show any signs or symptoms, just like you would with the flu. At least that's what the newest research on covid-19 is saying.
Let's go Brandon! "rlol"

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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#18

Post by jason812 »

seph wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:35 am
flechero wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:40 am
Aggie_engr wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:05 am
If you think the government has any interest in the least bit of your health and safety, my friend I would look up the definition of naive. With that being said, I agree with other members that we should be using our ability to think for ourselves and make rational decisions, not giving in to the media induced panic rhetoric that has caused most normal Americans to fall into full blown hysteria.




Your post is a handbook of how freedom loving Americans should approach situations like that which we find ourselves in lately.
Wow, your foil hat is tight.

I'm not giving in to the media, one of my good friends runs the ER at a major hospital... and several others are Dr's who are all in crisis mode right now, preparing for a worst case scenario.

I hope you and the other selfish and self important "freedom loving Americans" enjoy your dinners and a movie out, in exchange for endangering a segment of the population. You guys are coming off like a couple of spoiled 3 year olds... or OCT activists.
They are things our governments can and cannot do. Period.
Our governments is supposed to honor and uphold our Constitution at all times. They cannot just uphold it most of the time, and say oh, it's an emergency and put it on pause. Once done, it will always be done and soon we will always live in some kind of emergency. If we continue on this path, (people panicking / freaking out and our governments keeping stripping our liberties), I fear that the fall of our country as we know it is coming soon. That's what I fear over covid-19.

We, as Americans, can choose to reduce our activities outside our homes based on our risk to us and our family. But, we cannot be forced to as we have liberties that our governments CANNOT take away. Hearing mayors, county commissioners, and governors forcing people to close their business, forcing people not to leaving their homes, and not to peacefully assembly is a very scary thing to see now. Much more scary than an over hyped virus.

It is a fact that most everyone will get covid-19. It is just a matter of when. Even locking every american in their home will stop it spreading. China did just that and it still spread like wild fire and still is spreading. If they were able to control it, all of their factories would be back open. It is also a fact that mostly everyone who has it will recover just fine with no hospitalization. A very small percentage of people will require hospitalization, and an even smaller percent will die. Catching covad-19 is not a death penalty!

What is also scary is seeing people on this forum (which is to educate and inform people about one of our most important liberties) ready to lay down and allow other very important liberties to be taken away.

Liberty once lost is lost forever.

I'm done with this thread and I'll see everyone in the future. We can hang out here and complain about what we surrendered during our panic, while comparing our two weeks of suffering though the symptoms of covid-19 (hint: fever and being bedridden due to being weak, oh and a cough), while pledging allegiance to the USSA (United Socialist States Of America) as we are required to.

</End rant>
:iagree:
Just look at what we gave up right after 9-11. Have we gotten the 4th Amendment back? Have we got the 2nd back after the panic in the 1920's over mobsters and high profile bank robbers who killed far less people than the media portrayed? Times of panic gives the government the leverage to chip away or take large chunks of our rights with very little push back.
In certain extreme situations, the law is inadequate. In order to shame its inadequacy, it is necessary to act outside the law to pursue a natural justice.
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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#19

Post by Liberty »

What scares me about government-mandated orders, is, "What happens next?" Every year flu, make their rounds. Have we opened up Pandora's box?

Every year should the government mandate that everyone get a flu shot?
Every year should the government be able to mandate no gatherings of more than 10 people?
Every year should the government be able shut down targeted businesses?

My family has health issues, Some of us are elderly, I am a 68 year old diabetic. All of us should understand the risks and dangers that face us. While we might not agree on what the government should do, We need to understand what is at stake for both sides of the issue. We all afraid, just not of the same things.
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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#20

Post by suthdj »

Birds of a feather, If people want to go out and place themslves at risk it is their choice AND the only other people at risk are those who are also out an about. So if you are practicing social distancing an not going out how are you in danger. Darwins law right. Lets stop being so judgmental on here it really destroys an otherwise informative site.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#21

Post by The Annoyed Man »

I have several thoughts....

1. There are certain necessities for some people which will run counter to the intended spirit of the restrictions. SOME people—particularly single people living on their own at the lower end of the wage scale—aren’t logistically prepared for this kind of thing, and they lack the financial means of becoming logistically prepared in the short amount of time that these restrictions have been put in place. They don’t have 2 weeks of food stored up in their homes....let alone a month-or-two's worth. They have always depended on being able to make smaller, more frequent grocery runs, or going out for fast food. I will grant that many of these people are also not immunized against bad decision-making, and they'll suffer the consequences thereof to a greater extent because of it. But there isn’t time enough right now for them to learn how to change their habits as we head into these restrictions.

I am NOT proposing that we do anything to, for, or about these people. What I am saying is that it is unrealistic to expect that most of them will stay home and keep to themselves. They will go out to eat. They will go out to socialize. They will go out to buy groceries. That’s just a fact, and I don’t see what can be done about this particular social stratum, other than locking them up ... which shouldn’t happen anyway.

2. One of my very favorite commenters/observers of humanity, second only to Jesus Christ, and on the same level as Samuel Clemens, is H.L. Mencken—who had MUCH to say about liberty. One of his quotes goes thusly:
I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air – that progress made under the shadow of the policeman’s club is false progress, and of no permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave.

"Why Liberty?”, in the Chicago Tribune (30 January 1927)
In another one of my favorite quotes, Suzanna Gratia Hupp said, speaking of the 2nd Amendment:
How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of.
If you substitute the word "liberty" for "2nd Amendment", she’s expressing the same sentiment that Mencken does, but she adds something—the notion that liberty cannot exist without gov’t's acceptance of the citizenry as trustworthy and productive. The meaning of "productive" is self evident....the meaning of "trustworthy" may seem a little more cloudy, but it’s not. Not really.

My personal understanding of "trustworthy" isn't framed by asking "do I believe that most people, most of the time, will want and/or try to do the right thing"? Because the answer to that question is definitely "no, I do not". What I trust them to do is to act in what they (rightly or wrongly) perceive to be their own self interest most of the time, and to hades with the consequences to themselves or anyone else. The problem is that I cannot curtail their liberty to act according to those perceptions without subjecting myself to the same curtailments.

I believe that my family is adequately prepared for total isolation should we need to do so. So far, my wife and I are only making limited forays out and about, and my son and DIL are still having to report to their jobs. Our grandkids are are home because the schools are closed. My grandson's 4th birthday party was supposed to be this Sunday. We canceled it this morning, which is kind of sad, but we'll make it up to him. He’s 4. He'll remember that we threw him a family birthday party. He won’t remember that none of his cousins were there.

My son's niece is currently undergoing chemotherapy following removal of a brain tumor. She's 6. Her life is already hard right now, and she has a very compromised immune system at the moment and has dealt with a series of resultant infections. She’s on pretty strict isolation right now. Her family has had to ship her older brother off to live with their grandparents so that he doesn’t bring something home that could kill her.

Responsible people are having to really change their normal routines to deal with this thing. I do understand that not everyone is in a position to self-isolate, but I think that it’s pointless to be in denial about the risks. The incubation period means that it is possible to be exposed, catch it, and walk around shedding viruses for 2-4 weeks after exposure without even knowing you’ve got it. How would you feel if you were that person, and then 3 days after having visited your elderly parents and hugged them goodbye, you start showing symptoms? Sure, you’re relatively young and in good health. You’ll likely feel like you have a mild flu, and that’ll be it. But your elderly parents might die because of your irresponsibility. Are you ready to live with that, knowing that you could have taken steps to limit your exposure, but chose not to?

What are you going to do if you go to a movie, and halfway into it, the guy sitting behind you develops a cough, and you find that you’ve been breathing in his little virus-infested droplets? Now you catch the disease, and he infected someone else, because neither of you were willing to put up with the temporary inconvenience of getting your entertainment at home instead.

One is a case of putting someone else you love at risk; the other is a case of having been put at risk by a total stranger. BOTH are cases of infection due to social irresponsibility. Forget the moral implications and consider just the facts: it’s the equivalent of unprotected sex with total strangers—fun for a short while, but spirochetes don’t care about your fun. They live ONLY to replicate themselves, and they’ve taken evolutionary advantage of the human tendency to prefer immediate gratification over wisdom. COVID-19 also lives only to replicate itself, and it will take advantage of any opportunity YOU give it to do so.

I’m 67, and I’m not in the same robust health I was in as a young man. Right now, my son and DIL have to go in to work, but I’m grateful that they’ve begun staying home and avoiding crowds when they don’t have to be at work. My wife and I are staying home as much as possible. Our church is still having services, but we’re holding them to an empty room, and webcasting them. Our Lifegroup is suspending meetings until next month. All of this serves TWO purposes.... it protects US from sick people, and it protects OTHERS in case we’ve already been exposed.

Right now, nobody sane is suggesting that you have to stop living your life. But, sane people ARE suggesting, and for good reasons, that you should modify your daily routines for a temporary period. In so far as it is within your ability to avoid doing so, don’t be a jerk about it. If most everybody gets on board with voluntary self-isolation, the situation will be TEMPORARY. If enough people are careless about it, and that careless behavior can be determined to have prolonged the public health crisis, then look for the the crisis to become a political and legal one. I’m a "small L" libertarian (actually, a minarchist), but one of the things that is sometimes off-putting to me about libertarianism is that so many of its adherents seem autistic when it comes to ideas like social contracts. Remember that authoritarianism LOVES a crisis like this because it always provides the statist reasons to further curtail liberty in the name of "safety"; and it will always rush in to cease control wherever the boundaries of social contract become too permeable to antisocial behavior.

Freaking out about this stuff serves no one. Panic never serves any purpose but that of getting people killed. But the flip side of that is that stupid is painful. The problem is that it isn’t always painful to the stupid person. Sometimes it flattens the poor sod who had the misfortune of simply being in stupid's vicinity, and that’s an injustice that could easily be prevented with an advance application of smarts.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

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Aggie_engr
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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#22

Post by Aggie_engr »

Liberty wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:06 am What scares me about government-mandated orders, is, "What happens next?" Every year flu, make their rounds. Have we opened up Pandora's box?

Every year should the government mandate that everyone get a flu shot?
Every year should the government be able to mandate no gatherings of more than 10 people?
Every year should the government be able shut down targeted businesses?

My family has health issues, Some of us are elderly, I am a 68 year old diabetic. All of us should understand the risks and dangers that face us. While we might not agree on what the government should do, We need to understand what is at stake for both sides of the issue. We all afraid, just not of the same things.
Agreed. What’s next is being rounded up by government officials, against ones will, just for violating a government mandated curfew, i.e. forced quarantine. That’s not my tinfoil hat telling me this, it’s already happening in Europe and we know the dems love to model their actions in such fashion.

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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#23

Post by seph »

TAM :
Comparing this is a sexually transmitted desease is not a good camparission. One can never be cured and you will suffer from for the rest of your life, and one is a virus that will run its course after a few weeks (a pretty bad few weeks) but that's it.

That is part of the problem with how everyone is messaging it. It is completely survivable to just about everyone. There is no need for anyone to fear getting it, besides those at high risk ( is older or poor health). Just about everyone will get it. All of the medical research community agree on that. We can slow the pace of the spread and stretch it out for many many months, or not. But, in the end, the same number of people will get it regardless. The is in agreement in the medical community.

We have to stop fearing the virus. That goes to our law makers and leaders. When you forcefully close businesses, require shelter in place order (San Francisco), etc, it all leads to more fear and panic in our society. That is the failings of our government right now.
Let's go Brandon! "rlol"
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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#24

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

The Annoyed Man wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:57 am I have several thoughts....

1. There are certain necessities for some people which will run counter to the intended spirit of the restrictions. SOME people—particularly single people living on their own at the lower end of the wage scale—aren’t logistically prepared for this kind of thing, and they lack the financial means of becoming logistically prepared in the short amount of time that these restrictions have been put in place. They don’t have 2 weeks of food stored up in their homes....let alone a month-or-two's worth. They have always depended on being able to make smaller, more frequent grocery runs, or going out for fast food. I will grant that many of these people are also not immunized against bad decision-making, and they'll suffer the consequences thereof to a greater extent because of it. But there isn’t time enough right now for them to learn how to change their habits as we head into these restrictions.

I am NOT proposing that we do anything to, for, or about these people. What I am saying is that it is unrealistic to expect that most of them will stay home and keep to themselves. They will go out to eat. They will go out to socialize. They will go out to buy groceries. That’s just a fact, and I don’t see what can be done about this particular social stratum, other than locking them up ... which shouldn’t happen anyway.

2. One of my very favorite commenters/observers of humanity, second only to Jesus Christ, and on the same level as Samuel Clemens, is H.L. Mencken—who had MUCH to say about liberty. One of his quotes goes thusly:
I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even when the former is dangerous and the latter safe. I believe that the finest qualities of man can flourish only in free air – that progress made under the shadow of the policeman’s club is false progress, and of no permanent value. I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave.

"Why Liberty?”, in the Chicago Tribune (30 January 1927)
In another one of my favorite quotes, Suzanna Gratia Hupp said, speaking of the 2nd Amendment:
How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised, and taken care of.
If you substitute the word "liberty" for "2nd Amendment", she’s expressing the same sentiment that Mencken does, but she adds something—the notion that liberty cannot exist without gov’t's acceptance of the citizenry as trustworthy and productive. The meaning of "productive" is self evident....the meaning of "trustworthy" may seem a little more cloudy, but it’s not. Not really.

My personal understanding of "trustworthy" isn't framed by asking "do I believe that most people, most of the time, will want and/or try to do the right thing"? Because the answer to that question is definitely "no, I do not". What I trust them to do is to act in what they (rightly or wrongly) perceive to be their own self interest most of the time, and to hades with the consequences to themselves or anyone else. The problem is that I cannot curtail their liberty to act according to those perceptions without subjecting myself to the same curtailments.

I believe that my family is adequately prepared for total isolation should we need to do so. So far, my wife and I are only making limited forays out and about, and my son and DIL are still having to report to their jobs. Our grandkids are are home because the schools are closed. My grandson's 4th birthday party was supposed to be this Sunday. We canceled it this morning, which is kind of sad, but we'll make it up to him. He’s 4. He'll remember that we threw him a family birthday party. He won’t remember that none of his cousins were there.

My son's niece is currently undergoing chemotherapy following removal of a brain tumor. She's 6. Her life is already hard right now, and she has a very compromised immune system at the moment and has dealt with a series of resultant infections. She’s on pretty strict isolation right now. Her family has had to ship her older brother off to live with their grandparents so that he doesn’t bring something home that could kill her.

Responsible people are having to really change their normal routines to deal with this thing. I do understand that not everyone is in a position to self-isolate, but I think that it’s pointless to be in denial about the risks. The incubation period means that it is possible to be exposed, catch it, and walk around shedding viruses for 2-4 weeks after exposure without even knowing you’ve got it. How would you feel if you were that person, and then 3 days after having visited your elderly parents and hugged them goodbye, you start showing symptoms? Sure, you’re relatively young and in good health. You’ll likely feel like you have a mild flu, and that’ll be it. But your elderly parents might die because of your irresponsibility. Are you ready to live with that, knowing that you could have taken steps to limit your exposure, but chose not to?

What are you going to do if you go to a movie, and halfway into it, the guy sitting behind you develops a cough, and you find that you’ve been breathing in his little virus-infested droplets? Now you catch the disease, and he infected someone else, because neither of you were willing to put up with the temporary inconvenience of getting your entertainment at home instead.

One is a case of putting someone else you love at risk; the other is a case of having been put at risk by a total stranger. BOTH are cases of infection due to social irresponsibility. Forget the moral implications and consider just the facts: it’s the equivalent of unprotected sex with total strangers—fun for a short while, but spirochetes don’t care about your fun. They live ONLY to replicate themselves, and they’ve taken evolutionary advantage of the human tendency to prefer immediate gratification over wisdom. COVID-19 also lives only to replicate itself, and it will take advantage of any opportunity YOU give it to do so.

I’m 67, and I’m not in the same robust health I was in as a young man. Right now, my son and DIL have to go in to work, but I’m grateful that they’ve begun staying home and avoiding crowds when they don’t have to be at work. My wife and I are staying home as much as possible. Our church is still having services, but we’re holding them to an empty room, and webcasting them. Our Lifegroup is suspending meetings until next month. All of this serves TWO purposes.... it protects US from sick people, and it protects OTHERS in case we’ve already been exposed.

Right now, nobody sane is suggesting that you have to stop living your life. But, sane people ARE suggesting, and for good reasons, that you should modify your daily routines for a temporary period. In so far as it is within your ability to avoid doing so, don’t be a jerk about it. If most everybody gets on board with voluntary self-isolation, the situation will be TEMPORARY. If enough people are careless about it, and that careless behavior can be determined to have prolonged the public health crisis, then look for the the crisis to become a political and legal one. I’m a "small L" libertarian (actually, a minarchist), but one of the things that is sometimes off-putting to me about libertarianism is that so many of its adherents seem autistic when it comes to ideas like social contracts. Remember that authoritarianism LOVES a crisis like this because it always provides the statist reasons to further curtail liberty in the name of "safety"; and it will always rush in to cease control wherever the boundaries of social contract become too permeable to antisocial behavior.

Freaking out about this stuff serves no one. Panic never serves any purpose but that of getting people killed. But the flip side of that is that stupid is painful. The problem is that it isn’t always painful to the stupid person. Sometimes it flattens the poor sod who had the misfortune of simply being in stupid's vicinity, and that’s an injustice that could easily be prevented with an advance application of smarts.
Good lord TAM! It's a good thing people are not going to work. It is gonna take all day to read this. "rlol"
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#25

Post by The Annoyed Man »

03Lightningrocks wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:06 pm Good lord TAM! It's a good thing people are not going to work. It is gonna take all day to read this. "rlol"
A. I’m ba-ack! :lol:
B. You’ve got the time now, right? :mrgreen:
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#26

Post by The Annoyed Man »

seph wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:39 am TAM :
Comparing this is a sexually transmitted desease is not a good camparission. One can never be cured and you will suffer from for the rest of your life, and one is a virus that will run its course after a few weeks (a pretty bad few weeks) but that's it.

That is part of the problem with how everyone is messaging it. It is completely survivable to just about everyone. There is no need for anyone to fear getting it, besides those at high risk ( is older or poor health). Just about everyone will get it. All of the medical research community agree on that. We can slow the pace of the spread and stretch it out for many many months, or not. But, in the end, the same number of people will get it regardless. The is in agreement in the medical community.

We have to stop fearing the virus. That goes to our law makers and leaders. When you forcefully close businesses, require shelter in place order (San Francisco), etc, it all leads to more fear and panic in our society. That is the failings of our government right now.
  1. Seph, Just to be clear, I don’t fear it at all, and I’m well aware of your point. In fact, I take it as a given that I’ll probably catch it at some point. But right now, I’m talking about RIGHT NOW, and not what the pandemic looks like 6-8 months down the road.
  2. The whole intent of my post is to urge people to take those actions that will flatten the curve, and keep it from spiking. Why? Because flattening the curve as much as possible means that the number of active cases at any one time that are severe enough to require hospitalization, will be well below the number of hospital beds (and therefore staffing) available at any given time.....and therefore well within the capability of our healthcare system (as it currently stands) to manage the problem.
  3. And when I used spirochetes as an example, you’ll note that I ALSO said, "Forget the moral implications and consider just the facts". I wasn’t comparing COVID-19 to a venereal disease, I was comparing it to A disease, and I chose one that would be commonly known about to the average reader. I suppose that I could have chosen the cold-sore herpes virus....or maybe smallpox or TB....to illustrate my point, but I didn’t. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
  4. I think I also made it pretty plain that I not only think that gov’t is the problem (as it so often is), but that there could be 2nd, 3rd, and 4th order effects beyond the purely medical, as gov’t seeks to force people into taking actions they won’t voluntarily take themselves....primarily because they are knotheads.

With all due respect, try and avoid reading into my words what isn’t there. I actually spent the better part of two hours writing that post and thinking my way through it. (Also, I have some background of having worked in the healthcare industry, with a somewhat better than layperson's understanding of it at the delivery end.)
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, "Those Who Remain"

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imkopaka
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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#27

Post by imkopaka »

Aggie_engr wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:00 am
Liberty wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:06 am What scares me about government-mandated orders, is, "What happens next?" Every year flu, make their rounds. Have we opened up Pandora's box?

Every year should the government mandate that everyone get a flu shot?
Every year should the government be able to mandate no gatherings of more than 10 people?
Every year should the government be able shut down targeted businesses?

My family has health issues, Some of us are elderly, I am a 68 year old diabetic. All of us should understand the risks and dangers that face us. While we might not agree on what the government should do, We need to understand what is at stake for both sides of the issue. We all afraid, just not of the same things.
Agreed. What’s next is being rounded up by government officials, against ones will, just for violating a government mandated curfew, i.e. forced quarantine. That’s not my tinfoil hat telling me this, it’s already happening in Europe and we know the dems love to model their actions in such fashion.
There's a man in Kentucky right now under 24 hour armed lockdown in his home because he refused to self-quarantine. To be fair he is confirmed infected, but it supports your point regardless. It's not a big jump to enforce that kind of quarantine on someone who may be infected, or is at risk of being infected, or whatever else they decide.
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PriestTheRunner
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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#28

Post by PriestTheRunner »

imkopaka wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:15 pm There's a man in Kentucky right now under 24 hour armed lockdown in his home because he refused to self-quarantine. To be fair he is confirmed infected, but it supports your point regardless. It's not a big jump to enforce that kind of quarantine on someone who may be infected, or is at risk of being infected, or whatever else they decide.
I don't think any circumstance should allow government to forcefully abolish the constitution at the barrel of a gun.

Emergency declarations or not, private property is private property and it is the basis of our common agreement regarding governance. I stand my earlier post outlining all the ways the constitution has been crapped on by this mess. I ALSO stand by the fact that I said self-isolation and social distancing are good ideas and should be practiced right now, I just don't think the government has the right to do so at the end of a gun.

I'll go on the record for these:
1) Social distancing is a good idea right now
2) Self and Household-quarantine after showing symptoms is a good idea
3) Postponing large gatherings (My church consists of 1200 regular attendees) is a great idea
4) Postponing school for a few weeks, and college's going with distance learning is a great idea

5) None of this is within Government's purview to force upon others at the barrel of a gun.

6) If you are immuno-suppressed, it is YOUR responsibility to take steps to avoid catching this
7) If you, by necessity, must visit or work with the immuno-suppressed, you have extra responsibility to self-assess for symptoms daily or hourly, and take extra steps to prevent possible early stage spreading of the disease (including masks, gloves, extra hand washing, etc).

If we trust those who are immuno-suppressed and those who work with them to fully assume their responsibility in this, we could get by with lower infection rates, a lower overall spread rate, and a more realistic overview. The idea that you 'wont catch it' is false. Us beating this thing is about those who would be serious cases not all catching it simultaneously, and quickly developing a vaccine as well as developing a method of care that produces the best possible case outcomes. The idea that we can shut it down completely is false.

Why have we abandoned personal responsibility and handed it over to the government? When has that EVER worked in any method whatsoever? What if it was determined that the 'home production of ammo' was dangerous to our society? What if it was determined (and rightly so) that guns kill more people than the Corona-Virus did, and we shut down our society over that? Would there be any logical reason to withhold a full ban on guns and ammo under that same line of thinking?

Do people really own their property or not? Do people really have the liberty of choice or not? Those are the fundamental questions at bay here, not just a viral scare.

Don't PATRIOT act the rest of my rights away.

mrvmax
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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#29

Post by mrvmax »

Rob72 wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:22 pm As a healthcare worker, working directly on COVID, and a Type 1 diabetic x 47 years, I am not terribly interested in the "rights" of people to congregate and wank their jaws.

If you are symptomatic, you have probably been shedding virus for several days before you knew anything was going on.

Hoarding has caused critical shortages of basic personal protective equipment for front-line healthcare providers.

I do not live in fear, but I have worked with infectious diseases, of all sorts, for about 7 of my 27 years in healthcare.

I can pretty well guarantee that at some point, someone will have done, "whatever we wanted to do," which will spread infection to someone like me.

At some point, after seeing other, "someones like me," infected, someone like me will do violence. That is likely to be the start of the gun-grabbing-National-Guard-in-the-streets.

My question is: is having your recreation worth the life and/or well being of your older neighbor, people at church, your parents?

John Adams who observed, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
Prior to Covid-19 people with the flu, TB, HIV, meningitis, hepatitis etc run around with the ability to spread it to those they interact with yet their movement is not restricted by the government. I see this in the same way but you’re in the medical field so you may see it differently.

Last year I was in my cardiologist waiting room and could hear the guy in the next room coughing away. I hear him tell the doc he has TB and it made me think about what we are exposed to.

I still think we are overacting to this but I wouldn’t knowingly go around spreading anything contagious either? But how far do we go? Should everyone with anything that can be spread easily to others be quarantined from here on out? From now on shall we quarantine everyone with the flu since 40-60k die each year from that? Shouldn’t we always consider others and ensure we aren’t exposing anyone in any way?

I don’t think that’s practical. People are responsible for their own well being and like it or not we take risks every day in our lives. I’m not knowingly going to expose people but I’ve also got to live my life in this world too and I’m not big on government mandating when and where I can go just to “protect” everyone else. I’ll do that myself.
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PriestTheRunner
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Re: Rights vs Responsibilities

#30

Post by PriestTheRunner »

mrvmax wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:31 pm I don’t think that’s practical. People are responsible for their own well being and like it or not we take risks every day in our lives. I’m not knowingly going to expose people but I’ve also got to live my life in this world too and I’m not big on government mandating when and where I can go just to “protect” everyone else. I’ll do that myself.
Not just that, by forcing martial law, mandating the closure of entire industries, and in some places even mandating a shelter-in-place requirement- they are mandating when and where people who have no chance of harboring the disease may be. What about people who have had it and are recovered? Can they go out? What about those who haven't been exposed? Can they go buy some groceries?

The amount of power some are willing to hand over to the government (of all levels) is appalling to me.
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