Quick question for all of the attorneys!

[JALLEN]

Many of his female classmates found employment, though even they are mostly underemployed. One, for example, got a job with an insurance company for $50K per year. Law school was free for him, but a lot of his classmates owe over $200K in student loans and they're not getting employment commensurate with their degrees.

.........

And to second what JALLEN said....my son loves going to school. He was a double major at UT and had a 4.0 GPA, but he hated law school.

A newly graduated lawyer is practically worthless. Most of the top students have never held real jobs, and very few have any real idea of what having your client's life and fortune in your hands entails. You are betting on their potential. Nevertheless, these guys think they ought to be taking cases to court right away. The DA can afford some rookies, on minor cases, and gradually bring them along as they make their mistakes and learn from those what they are doing.

Think about pilots. You start out with an instructor, who lends you his experience and judgment so you can live long enough to get some of your own. After years of flying in various situations, if you live, you are getting the hang of it and realize the true criticality of doing everything right, paying attention to important details, and reacting appropriately in situations not covered by "the rules."

I don't know how you tell who is going to make the grade as a top, reliable, trustworthy counselor, disciplined, with sound judgment.

I had a customer of our loan servicing outfit who was embezzled out of quite a few millions in real estate loans by a crooked loan broker, despite being represented by one of the largest, most reputable law firms in California. Those senior associates, with impressive degrees, impecable suits, ties, shined shoes, who should have been supervised by a partner at least, had no idea what they were doing, totally ignorant of the basic principles, like a bunch of monkeys trying to figure out a baritone sax. I was expecting to see this one on "American Greed" but the perp died so maybe it lost viewer interest. I believe the very large firm settled up with our mutual client. They threatened to sue me but after I mentioned how idiotic their associates' role had been, they forgot all about it.

[VMI77]

Many of his female classmates found employment, though even they are mostly underemployed. One, for example, got a job with an insurance company for $50K per year. Law school was free for him, but a lot of his classmates owe over $200K in student loans and they're not getting employment commensurate with their degrees.

.........

And to second what JALLEN said....my son loves going to school. He was a double major at UT and had a 4.0 GPA, but he hated law school.

A newly graduated lawyer is practically worthless. Most of the top students have never held real jobs, and very few have any real idea of what having your client's life and fortune in your hands entails. You are betting on their potential. Nevertheless, these guys think they ought to be taking cases to court right away. The DA can afford some rookies, on minor cases, and gradually bring them along as they make their mistakes and learn from those what they are doing.

Think about pilots. You start out with an instructor, who lends you his experience and judgment so you can live long enough to get some of your own. After years of flying in various situations, if you live, you are getting the hang of it and realize the true criticality of doing everything right, paying attention to important details, and reacting appropriately in situations not covered by "the rules."

I don't know how you tell who is going to make the grade as a top, reliable, trustworthy counselor, disciplined, with sound judgment.

I had a customer of our loan servicing outfit who was embezzled out of quite a few millions in real estate loans by a crooked loan broker, despite being represented by one of the largest, most reputable law firms in California. Those senior associates, with impressive degrees, impecable suits, ties, shined shoes, who should have been supervised by a partner at least, had no idea what they were doing, totally ignorant of the basic principles, like a bunch of monkeys trying to figure out a baritone sax. I was expecting to see this one on "American Greed" but the perp died so maybe it lost viewer interest. I believe the very large firm settled up with our mutual client. They threatened to sue me but after I mentioned how idiotic their associates' role had been, they forgot all about it.

All true, and btw, also true for newly graduated engineers. My son thought law school was practically worthless, some classes far more so than others. He didn't find it to be particularly difficult either...just a little harder than undergrad work at UT. However, before going to law school he interned for an advertising agency in Beijing, assisted with the committee to unify North and South Korea, translated contracts for a consultant working a deal in China, and spent about a year in Beijing working for a Chinese wind turbine manufacturer. He speaks, reads and writes Chinese and Japanese....though his Chinese is much better since he hasn't spent any time in Japan. Oh, and in law school, he also interned in the legal department at the Chicago Sun Times, where his boss told him he read contracts better than a lot of attorneys with 10 years of experience. 9 months out, still no job, as is the case with practically all the classmates he's kept in touch with.

[jb2012]

Gosh, I really want to go through with law school and do it, all of this talk about not getting jobs sure scares me though. Are people turning down the lower paying jobs in turn causing the low employment? or are the jobs just really not there at all? I would love to work for a D.A. and maybe after time run myself.

[WildBill]

Gosh, I really want to go through with law school and do it, all of this talk about not getting jobs sure scares me though. Are people turning down the lower paying jobs in turn causing the low employment? or are the jobs just really not there at all? I would love to work for a D.A. and maybe after time run myself.

I think it's a case of supply and demand. In 2014 there were 43,832 law school graduates.

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/ ... eckdam.pdf

http://qz.com/392091/a-statistical-brea ... y-screwed/

[JALLEN]

Gosh, I really want to go through with law school and do it, all of this talk about not getting jobs sure scares me though. Are people turning down the lower paying jobs in turn causing the low employment? or are the jobs just really not there at all? I would love to work for a D.A. and maybe after time run myself.

Let me make the point again, that if you don't want to be a lawyer so badly you will do it (go to law school and be a lawyer) no matter what, then maybe it isn't for you. You will save yourself a lot of trouble, and huge expense, to look inside your soul now and examine very carefully if this is what you really want.

When I did it, I didn't care what jobs there might be, whether law school would be pleasant or not, I just wanted to be a lawyer. Once I did that, the other uncertainties would take care of themselves. I couldn't foresee how it would work out, just that somehow it would. Sure enough, I never would have forecast all that has happened the last 40 years. Like Yogi Berra, my forecasting is none too good, particularly when it pertains to the future.

I didn't mind fighting with other lawyers who weren't sure they wanted to be there.

[VMI77]

Gosh, I really want to go through with law school and do it, all of this talk about not getting jobs sure scares me though. Are people turning down the lower paying jobs in turn causing the low employment? or are the jobs just really not there at all? I would love to work for a D.A. and maybe after time run myself.

I can only speak to the experience of my son and his friends. He is definitely not turning down lower paying jobs....he's not even being offered any. He got one temp job on contract with a consulting firm paying about $13 an hour...in Seattle, where the minimum wage gradually increases to $15 an hour in the next couple years. One of his friends was rejected for a temp job that entailed reading documents at just above minimum wage because he didn't have enough experience. The university placement office has recommended positions at places literally paying the minimum wage of $7 something per hour. In that case, yeah, he didn't consider it. Why go to law school and take a job paying minimum wage?

My oldest son has a STEM degree. He was competing against other STEM graduates for jobs that only required high school, and in some cases, associate degrees. Didn't get one offer. During this time he was tutoring high school math and the SAT part time (he couldn't tutor subjects like English for high school students even though he had worked as an English tutor for college students...because he wasn't a certified teacher). He was loved by students and parents alike. One father drove his son from over 1.5 hours away each direction in order to be tutored by my son. The owner of the place liked him a lot and gave him glowing references.

He applied to everything he qualified for over about two years before finally taking a position with TSA because a position at TSA gives you priority for other federal jobs. That enabled him to get a position with the USDA. He's making as much or more money with just an undergrad degree than my unemployed youngest and a lot of his classmates, and he's not exactly making big money. In fact, he's making less in salary than the company I used to work for was starting brand new engineering graduates at 15 years ago.

Personally, I think you need to do what you want to do and will enjoy, but you need to realize that there may be a cost for making that choice, which is why I'm relating the experience of my sons. So how badly do you want to be a lawyer? What kind of income do you want to have? Do you have connections to help you get a job after law school or will you be competing on your merits? In the current economy I don't think there is much of a meritocracy in the private sector, so if you don't have contacts I think your chances will be better seeking a federal job because, in spite of everything the federal government still largely hires on merit.

I agree with JALLEN about motivation. My son could probably work his way into lawyering if he really wanted to make the necessary sacrifices. The thing is, law school pretty much beat out of him any desire he had to be a lawyer.

[Pawpaw]

The problem with lawyers is that 99% of them give all the rest a bad name.

[JALLEN]

My son could probably work his way into lawyering if he really wanted to make the necessary sacrifices. The thing is, law school pretty much beat out of him any desire he had to be a lawyer.

If so, it's better to level with himself.

Lawyering is not easy. You have to really be "into it" with intensity. If you are in it for the money, or the prestige, it may not be worth it. There are a lot of frustrations.

If you go at it for all you are worth, unstintingly, you can have a chance to do very well financially. If you are only looking at the money, it probably won't be.

Of the classmates who passed the bar with me, very few practiced law for very long. Some dropped out pretty quick, including the best student in our class. He was really good at taking exams, solving problems in real life, not so much. One fellow, married to another classmate, was just convicted and disbarred for embezzling client trust funds. He probably should have dropped out years ago.

[P3^eQme(c+]

Sorry to respond to an old thread.

I am new here, and an SMU law student. Law school is hard. It sucks. It's miserable and will stress you out beyond belief. But, I love it. Everyday I am glad that I chose SMU and law as a career. It's either for you or it isn't. It's a choice you have to make. And even if it is, that still doesn't mean you make it. The class room environment is not like undergrad. The Socratic method sucks.

Anyways, it's hard, it sucks, and I love it. And with that being said, anybody hiring?

[KLB]

As a caveat, the legal market is changing. It's not clear what law practice will be like in a few years, especially for people with less experience. Even now, many law grads can't find legal-related work. If you are called to the law great, but don't incur a lot of debt to go to law school because repaying it may be difficult.

I graduated from UT Law in December 1975 and am now mostly retired. None of this is a problem for me, but I know it's a problem for younger people coming out of school. Don't go to law school because you think you'll end up rich. That's less and less likely these days.

[P3^eQme(c+]

As KLB said, don't do it for the money. Very few get the Big Law jobs. And law school debt racks up...quick.

Thankfully a Purple Heart has given me a full ride to SMU, but a lot of my classmates are deep in the hole.

[TexasJohnBoy]

Hope this isn't too late, but don't go to UNT Dallas.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/educatio ... accredited
https://www.texastribune.org/2016/08/23 ... t-get-cha/

[Charles L. Cotton]

As a caveat, the legal market is changing. It's not clear what law practice will be like in a few years, especially for people with less experience. Even now, many law grads can't find legal-related work. If you are called to the law great, but don't incur a lot of debt to go to law school because repaying it may be difficult.

I graduated from UT Law in December 1975 and am now mostly retired. None of this is a problem for me, but I know it's a problem for younger people coming out of school. Don't go to law school because you think you'll end up rich. That's less and less likely these days.

on all points.

Chas.

[The Wall]

It's harder to chase ambulances when you get older also.