NEW: Texas Clown Issue

[TreyHouston]

OK, so I decided to start a new thread about this. Please feel free to carry on the conversation after the question and answered. So my wife and I were talking about the clown assault in Texas. This is where the clown was chasing two kids with a baseball bat down the street. If you witness this what would you do?

I made the comment to my wife that I would pull my car in front of the kids and stop so I was cutting the clown off from the kids. I would then draw my gun and scream for him to STOP!!!! and if he didn't stop, I would shoot the clown in the leg if he still continued I would shoot him center mass. If he was caring a knife , Then I would shoot center mass, same for any kind of knife, chainsaw, sledgehammer or any other life-threatening weapon.

Is it ever justifiable to shoot someone in the leg to stop the threat? Does shooting someone in the leg put you in more path for civil liability then shooting to kill? Am I weird for thinking that a baseball bat is less life-threatening than a knife? Or machete?

[TreyHouston]

PS: any lawyer chiming in including Charles Cotton would be appreciated

[remanifest]

I think that it is naive to think you'd be capable of targeting a small limb in what is generally loose clothing on a moving target. The reason you aim center mass is to neutralize the threat. You are introducing more points of failure than necessary to a situation in which you feel you need to pull your gun.

[carlson1]

No difference in shooting him in the leg or center mass. If you have the right to use deadly force then shoot to stop. If you choose the leg, fine. If you choose the head, fine. The answer to deadly force is you are shooting to stop.

If you don't have the right to use deadly force and you do then you will be charged and tried the same for a head shot or a leg shot.

Not for sure if that is your question, but it is useless to shoot someone in the leg.

[Pawpaw]

Are you that perfect a shot that you can be sure you hit that fast moving leg? If not, I hope you know where your bullet will go when you miss.

Shooting people in the leg only belongs in the movies. If you did manage to hit him in the upper leg, there's a good chance you'll rupture the femoral artery and he'll bleed out in about 5 minutes. If that happens, what have you accomplished?

The vast majority of people shot with a handgun survive. That includes hits to the chest.

[Skiprr]

Not for sure if that is your question, but it is useless to shoot someone in the leg.

And not a smart idea to try.

2016 Defensive Shooting Rule Number 1: Ignore all movies and all video games.

In a real defensive situation, stuff is gonna move fast...real fast. You're gonna move; the bad guy is gonna move. If shots are fired, you're both gonna run. Epinephrine dump, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, fine motor skill inhibition.

I won't go into PC Chapter 9 and whether or not the scenario is justifiable.

But this whole "creepy clown" thing has me sleepless at night. In the past 30 days, all persons charged have been under 15 years old.

I would hesitate--and will always--to shoot if the perp was obviously just a kid. Perhaps to my demise.

[TexasCajun]

There is no "but he shot him in the leg" defense to prosecution or exception to the use of deadly force laws. If the situation qualifies as a use of deadly force to prevent death or great bodily injury in defense of self or others than it qualifies and you take whatever means necessary to stop the threat. I doubt that there are 100 people in the entire world that could consistently pull of a successful leg shot on a moving target. So for 99.99% of us mere mortals, stopping the threat with a handgun would mean shots to center mass. Besides, a leg shot is actually more deadly than one to the chest. If you happen to even nick the femoral artery, the person runs a huge risk of bleeding out before 911 is even called - especially if they've already been running for a bit.

[mojo84]

How about just shooting the object out of the clown's hand?

Another reason for shooting at center of mass is to give yourself the best odds of hitting what you aim at. When your adrenaline is pumping and things are happening quickly, it's not the time to rely on precision target shooting. Once one has been in a situation it's hard to realize that fine motor skills are tough to come by.

[nightmare69]

Unless you're Bob Munden it's doubtful that you will be able to hit a moving target the size of a post-it note. I've trained on moving targets and it's a whole other ballgame vs shooting static.

[Liberty]

I don't know about the wisdom of shooting at these clowns, who are chasing kids.
Most likely they are playing a joke, and have no intention of hurting anyone. Its October and creepy dressup and goofy behavior is to be expected. Kids chasing each other is just what kids do.

While shooting at the kneecaps is a bad idea that Hollywood promotes as a humane way of stopping the badguys. Shooting someone in the buttocks has been treated as being funny and most certainly not a stopper.
Pelvic hits are a good tactical choice. Probably stop someone faster than a COM shot. Usually isn't covered by armor, and busting up base structure is a good way to collapse it.

[Teamless]

The problem with "most of these clowns....", is which are just pranking and which will cause real harm?

I am waiting for the day (soon I fear), that some real crazy person dresses as a clown, pulls a "prank" which will turn out to be a plot to seriously injure or even kill people
It is for this reason, that I too have thought about that "what would I do" scenario

[TexasCajun]

The problem with "most of these clowns....", is which are just pranking and which will cause real harm?

I am waiting for the day (soon I fear), that some real crazy person dresses as a clown, pulls a "prank" which will turn out to be a plot to seriously injure or even kill people
It is for this reason, that I too have thought about that "what would I do" scenario

I think that ground had already been covered. John Wayne Gacey.

[RPBrown]

Let me get this straight.
You have a clown running after kids with a bat, you pull your car between them, jump out, Adrenalin rushing in a major way, you pull your weapon as he is still coming at you and you can shoot well enough to determine what is leg and what is loose clothing and hit the leg.
I can tell you that with all of that going on, you would be pretty good just to hit center mass unless you have a lot of active shooter training, and I mean a lot.
I have shot IDPA and even the rush you get when the horn goes off can throw off your shooting. We as a group here probably practice more than most people that carry because safety is important. I know SWAT guys that have been in shoots that will tell you the same. when adrenalin is pumping it is very hard to control. Why do you think that when here is a police shooting, you always hear of multiple shots by the officers but maybe only 1 or 2 actually hit the target.
I would be more apt to aim my vehicle at them at that point.

[treadlightly]

Is shooting for the leg that much different than shooting for the heart? Seems like a hit to the femoral artery would be really bad news.

[TreyHouston]

Wow, that's a lot of really good posts, and you're right. Shooting with adrenaline and both people moving is just about impossible!!! I might as well sheet to the sky I might have better luck getting a bird!
As someone mention most these clowns are kids, and I really don't want to kill a kid. I think I forgot a BIG RULE: Don't draw unless you 100% want to destroy.
I think in this situation i am better using my car to cut the clown off from the kids.