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School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:14 am
by jwadams19
Question. Thoughts and opinions greatly appreciated.
I am a public school employee. This weekend I will be traveling across the state in a school vehicle and staying overnight. I will NOT be with kids. Does the fact that I will be in a school vehicle and the school is paying for my trip have any bearing on me carrying?
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:31 am
by joe817
Good question! And welcome to the forum JW! Glad to have you with us!
IMO, and I'm sure others will chime in, since you are a
school employee, driving a
school vehicle, and I'm assuming you are conducting
school business on your trip, then carrying a gun in the vehicle is a no go.
And that also applies to wherever you go conducting
school business, no matter where you are.
Note that is only my opinion.
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:31 am
by RoyGBiv
Not legal advice, just my opinion.
A "school sponsored activity" does not have to include children.
What you describe is, IMO, a "school sponsored activity".
also... PC seems clear about school vehicles.
PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
........
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
Emphasis mine.
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:50 am
by jwadams19
Thank you for the responses. That is where I was at with it all as well.
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:52 am
by nimravus01
The way it's currently written, I would say no to carrying. Your specific scenario was probably not considered when the legislators were making the law, and probably should have added "when children are present". However LEO, DA, and judges, enforce/interperate/rule on the law as written. So, no carrying for you this time.
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 3:47 pm
by Vol Texan
So, according to the responses, he cannot carry in the vehicle under the authority of his CHL (LTC), because it is a school sponsored activity.
But could he carry under the authority of MPA, as long as he disarmed before attending whatever event he is driving to?
I'm not suggesting that he SHOULD - I truly don't know one way or another. I'm just trying to make sure all avenues are explored.
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 3:59 pm
by NTexCopRetired
I would suggest asking the Superintendent. If he is given specific permission, then he falls under the "pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution". It could be given on a temporary basis and limited to permission to have the weapon in that specific school vehicle for a specific time frame. I would certainly want everything in writing.
Our school district gives authorization to certain staff to carry at school, school functions and in school vehicles. Others are permitted to carry at school but not at athletic events, etc.
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 5:06 pm
by TreyHouston
NTexCopRetired wrote:I would suggest asking the Superintendent. If he is given specific permission, then he falls under the "pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution". It could be given on a temporary basis and limited to permission to have the weapon in that specific school vehicle for a specific time frame. I would certainly want everything in writing.
Our school district gives authorization to certain staff to carry at school, school functions and in school vehicles. Others are permitted to carry at school but not at athletic events, etc.
never hurts to ask! Be sure that if the answer is "yes" you get that in written form as in an email or perhaps a form they already have. That way there is NO misunderstanding
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 7:49 am
by thetexan
Yes it is a good question. I am assuming we are talking about a NON-higher education public school or institution because the rules are slightly different and will be more so after August 1.
The 46.03a1 prohibition against possessing a firearm on "...any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution...includes the exception..."unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution..."
So yes , it is POSSIBLE TO carry a firearm while on school business using a school vehicle pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution. Here we assume that your business trip would be considered a school activity. Even if it isn't considered such you are using a passenger transportation vehicle. Chapter 34 of the Education Code establishes that a passenger car may be used to transport less than 15 students. While it doesn't say so directly, I would take that as a good indication that your school vehicle used on a business trip would qualify as a passenger transportation vehicle for the application of this rule.
It all hinges on whether you are carrying under the authority of a school regulation or written authority.
tex
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 7:52 am
by thetexan
Vol Texan wrote:So, according to the responses, he cannot carry in the vehicle under the authority of his CHL (LTC), because it is a school sponsored activity. and not carrying pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution.
But could he carry under the authority of MPA, as long as he disarmed before attending whatever event he is driving to? no, because the MPA does not override the school's authority to give or withhold permission to carry on a school transportation vehicle by regulation or written document as per 46.03.
I'm not suggesting that he SHOULD - I truly don't know one way or another. I'm just trying to make sure all avenues are explored.
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:05 am
by TexasCajun
RoyGBiv wrote:Not legal advice, just my opinion.
A "school sponsored activity" does not have to include children.
What you describe is, IMO, a "school sponsored activity".
also... PC seems clear about school vehicles.
PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
........
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
Emphasis mine.
School sponsored activity is irrelevant to this discussion. As Charles has outlined in one of the earlier TFC podcasts, including the written authorization phrase in the statute limits the scope of "school sponsored activities" to only those grounds that are part of the school campus or property. A principle can't authorize the carrying of a handgun on property that the school doesn't own or control. Otherwise, you'd have to leave McDonald's when the high school football team shows up if you are carrying.
To address the OP's initial question - refer to school/district policy. If they allow concealed carry in district vehicles or while on district business, then you'd be ok to carry. If policy forbids it, you could be disciplined or fired for carrying. But you wouldn't run afoul of state law.
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:35 am
by ScottDLS
TexasCajun wrote:RoyGBiv wrote:Not legal advice, just my opinion.
A "school sponsored activity" does not have to include children.
What you describe is, IMO, a "school sponsored activity".
also... PC seems clear about school vehicles.
PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
........
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
Emphasis mine.
School sponsored activity is irrelevant to this discussion. As Charles has outlined in one of the earlier TFC podcasts, including the written authorization phrase in the statute limits the scope of "school sponsored activities" to only those grounds that are part of the school campus or property. A principle can't authorize the carrying of a handgun on property that the school doesn't own or control. Otherwise, you'd have to leave McDonald's when the high school football team shows up if you are carrying.
To address the OP's initial question - refer to school/district policy. If they allow concealed carry in district vehicles or while on district business, then you'd be ok to carry. If policy forbids it, you could be disciplined or fired for carrying. But you wouldn't run afoul of state law.
No, if you carry in a passenger transportation vehicle of a school, unless pursuant to written regulations, you are committing a felony by violating 46.03.
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 8:44 am
by RoyGBiv
TexasCajun wrote:RoyGBiv wrote:Not legal advice, just my opinion.
A "school sponsored activity" does not have to include children.
What you describe is, IMO, a "school sponsored activity".
also... PC seems clear about school vehicles.
PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
........
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
Emphasis mine.
School sponsored activity is irrelevant to this discussion. As Charles has outlined in one of the earlier TFC podcasts, including the written authorization phrase in the statute limits the scope of "school sponsored activities" to only those grounds that are part of the school campus or property. A principle can't authorize the carrying of a handgun on property that the school doesn't own or control. Otherwise, you'd have to leave McDonald's when the high school football team shows up if you are carrying.
To address the OP's initial question - refer to school/district policy. If they allow concealed carry in district vehicles or while on district business, then you'd be ok to carry. If policy forbids it, you could be disciplined or fired for carrying. But you wouldn't run afoul of state law.
Subtle much?
If you volunteer to be a parent supervisor on a class field trip, are you allowed to carry?
No.
Why?
Because it's a school sponsored event and you are a participant.
In this case the OP is similarly making a trip that is sponsored by the school. Just because there are not any kids coming along doesn't mean it's not a school sponsored activity. And... in addition.... school vehicles are EXPRESSLY noted in 46.03. You're welcome to believe otherwise. I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice, just my opinion. Worth even less than you paid for it.
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 10:03 am
by TexasCajun
The original post only mentioned school vehicle, not passenger transportation vehicle. School vehicle could be a district-provided car or truck that would not be considered a passenger transportation vehicle (read bus). If it is indeed the case that the OP will be traveling to the event in a school bus, then yes 46.03 applies.
Re: School Employee on Trip.
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 10:16 am
by TexasCajun
RoyGBiv wrote:TexasCajun wrote:RoyGBiv wrote:Not legal advice, just my opinion.
A "school sponsored activity" does not have to include children.
What you describe is, IMO, a "school sponsored activity".
also... PC seems clear about school vehicles.
PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
........
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
Emphasis mine.
School sponsored activity is irrelevant to this discussion. As Charles has outlined in one of the earlier TFC podcasts, including the written authorization phrase in the statute limits the scope of "school sponsored activities" to only those grounds that are part of the school campus or property. A principle can't authorize the carrying of a handgun on property that the school doesn't own or control. Otherwise, you'd have to leave McDonald's when the high school football team shows up if you are carrying.
To address the OP's initial question - refer to school/district policy. If they allow concealed carry in district vehicles or while on district business, then you'd be ok to carry. If policy forbids it, you could be disciplined or fired for carrying. But you wouldn't run afoul of state law.
Subtle much?
If you volunteer to be a parent supervisor on a class field trip, are you allowed to carry?
No.
Why?
Because it's a school sponsored event and you are a participant.
In this case the OP is similarly making a trip that is sponsored by the school. Just because there are not any kids coming along doesn't mean it's not a school sponsored activity. And... in addition.... school vehicles are EXPRESSLY noted in 46.03. You're welcome to believe otherwise. I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice, just my opinion. Worth even less than you paid for it.
Being a participant in a school sponsored activity does not prohibit carry in and of itself. If you volunteer to chaperon a field trip and drive yourself to the field trip location, you wouldn't be prohibited from carrying. Again, it has to do with what authority the school administrators have/don't have with respect to property that is not owned or leased by the school district.
Here's how Charles explains this point much better than I can:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=82361&p=1052074&hil ... l#p1052074