A video demonstrating the 21 ft rule

[The Annoyed Man]

It's kind of old, and the sound quality is lacking a bit, but this video demonstrates it very effectively, using uniformed policemen defending against a simulated knife attack from a skilled attacker:



It's always worth reviewing this stuff from time to time.

[Taypo]

I know that 21 feet is the important number for engagement from the holster, but are there any stats on reaction to that same situation from the low ready? My Google Fu is failing me today.

[John Galt]

Thanks for posting.

[Jago668]

Also keep in mind in the last bit where they show the 1' to 21', the officer knows the guy is going to attack. So you aren't figuring in anything other than physical reaction time. There isn't a "what is going on?" pause in there.

[Glockster]

Also keep in mind in the last bit where they show the 1' to 21', the officer knows the guy is going to attack. So you aren't figuring in anything other than physical reaction time. There isn't a "what is going on?" pause in there.

Absolutely correct. I have 50 years in martial arts, am a 5th degree Tae Kwon Do black belt, with black belts in six other styles of martial arts including two other 2nd degrees, and took an extensive amount of close hand to hand training. I have most of that time as an instructor, and I have taught at one time or another defensive combat to law enforcement and including military. I used to demo the 21 feet thing often and know it well. I never once faced any officer in that training who was able to successfully defend even at THAT distance. And that was expecting an attack of some kind.

What you see in the video (as well as the follow-on ones) is marginally realistic and doesn't take into consideration four specific things that I myself covered in my training: 1) You will not know that the attack is coming because the worst kind of assailant you encounter will be good enough to not give themselves away, and I never personally encountered any officer (other than someone with a fair amount of martial arts experience) who was trained to be able to determine that an attack has begun. I'm talking about a couple of very specific things to look for, and most experienced martial artists train to that; 2) Officers aren't well trained in the exact hand to hand techniques necessary and they haven't developed the muscle memory that you get from doing that over and over, and a bad guy already is thinking not the first step but also the next several, which reduces his reaction time by about 50%; 3). You must assume that your assailant will use techniques that will significantly impact your ability to first respond -- in the videos the assailant is quiet and unassuming...real life a really bad one will be good at using sound and physical movement to cause you to lose a second or more to reaction time causing shock to your system; 4) A lot of this becomes meaningless because as was shown in the videos, the experienced bad guy will never allow you to get to that 21' safer zone.

It was my experience when I was regularly providing this training that officers are extremely unprepared for the worst.

[ELB]

I know that 21 feet is the important number for engagement from the holster, but are there any stats on reaction to that same situation from the low ready? My Google Fu is failing me today.

If you have a similarly inclined friend you can determine your own stats to a degree, at least against an assailant who has the same speed as your friend. You can use training knives and blue guns that fit your carry gear (and yell bang), but using an airsoft brings a little more discipline to the process.

This group: https://www.facebook.com/CTCTG practices this kind of stuff regularly. In fact, their top facebook post is announcing an event that would let you practice this kind of scenario. The event itself is described here:

Don't just read about it, go try it out.

[MechAg94]

The first thing that jumps to mind is seeing the cops continue to try to draw from a retention holster while the attacker closes the final few feet. After that, even if they managed to draw and fire, the person might not stop and can likely still do plenty of damage.

[Jago668]

They should get Usain Bolt to help with these. If you can handle him, normal bad guys will probably look like slow motion.

[MechAg94]

In one of Massad Ayoob's books, he mentioned having all sorts of people do this drill in his classes playing both sides. He said some athletic people can cover that distance in less than 1 second, but even apparently slow or impaired people can cover it faster than you think.

[JALLEN]

This can't be true. I've seen hundreds of bad guys attacking a trained accomplished Aikido master, sometimes simultaneously, and as they run past him, he twists their elbow ever so slightly, and they end up in a heap with a broken arm, screaming for their mothers. Never even musses his hair!

You just need proper technique.

[Jago668]

This can't be true. I've seen hundreds of bad guys attacking a trained accomplished Aikido master, sometimes simultaneously, and as they run past him, he twists their elbow ever so slightly, and they end up in a heap with a broken arm, screaming for their mothers. Never even musses his hair!

You just need proper technique.

Stop watching Steven Seagal?

[ELB]

The first thing that jumps to mind is seeing the cops continue to try to draw from a retention holster while the attacker closes the final few feet. After that, even if they managed to draw and fire, the person might not stop and can likely still do plenty of damage.

One of the things I learned (in events of the type I posted above), and my compadres learned as well, is in a knife (or club/brick/bottle) attack there is a range at which trying to draw a gun is simply the wrong response -- the gun is no longer the immediate answer, you have to deal directly with the knife (club...) empty-handed. (You have to fight/defend to a) not get cut/beaten/stabbed, at least not too severely, and b) get to a geometry where you can employ superior tactics, whether it's run away, draw gun and shoot, draw knife and stab, break his bones because you have that training, have made time for your buddy to come and shoot, whatever.

That distance, as others have noted, varies both with your own physical attributes, skills, and weapons, and those of your assailant(s). And having more than one assailant exponentially increases the difficulty of the problem.

ETA: The Tueller drill, as I remember reading the original article, and the types of things seen in the video, were not designed to present a fully realistic scenario -- they were in fact a drill, a training event, designed to demonstrate a specific possibility or reality, in this case that person with a knife (bottle, brick club...) can be serious threat at much greater distances than you might otherwise (without experience) imagine.

Anyone with half a brain is not going to stand 21 feet away, show you his knife, and charge (except that guy in the one episode of Justified). He's going to do his best to get within arm's length without alerting you to danger, grab you and rapidly poke a bunch of holes. The Tueller drill and its descendants is really teaching you that despite having a gun, you very well may have to deal with deadly threats without it, on very short notice. As Glockster said, this is stuff you have to learn certain methodologies and techniques for and drill yourself to execute them without thinking.

[flechero]

This can't be true. I've seen hundreds of bad guys attacking a trained accomplished Aikido master,

You just need proper technique.

Well that is about .00013 of the population... chl is for regular people, not lifelong devotees of "the" arts.

[The Annoyed Man]

This can't be true. I've seen hundreds of bad guys attacking a trained accomplished Aikido master,

You just need proper technique.

Well that is about .00013 of the population... chl is for regular people, not lifelong devotees of "the" arts.

I guess Glockster isn't "regular people".
viewtopic.php?p=1018052#p1018052

[Glockster]

This can't be true. I've seen hundreds of bad guys attacking a trained accomplished Aikido master,

You just need proper technique.

Well that is about .00013 of the population... chl is for regular people, not lifelong devotees of "the" arts.

I'm not sure why you'd suggest something like that - that a CHL is for "regular" people but not martial artists, as that would be like saying that a lifelong runner doesn't need a CHL because, you know, they can just run away. Or that someone very intimidating because of their size and muscles doesn't need a CHL, because nobody in their right mind would try to rob them. Lots of folks can benefit from having a CHL.