Car Burglary with CHL Questions

[Thumpp]

First let me set the situation that happened to me recently:

I am a manager in a Bar/Restaurant .
I am a CHL Holder but do not bring my firearm to work.

2 weekends ago. After a busy night I finished my paperwork and was walking out with another manager. we were the only 2 left to close the place down. sometimes only one manager on weeknights.
This was about 4:15 in the morning. We are required by the shopping area to park well away from the front door to allow parking for customers. which puts our employee parking in a darkened area of the parking lot.
As we walked up to the vehicles parked side by side.. I was standing next to my drivers side door and noticed the rear passenger side window was "down" It dawns on me that I have had it broken into.. I take a step to my right to see the damage and realize the bad guy is sitting in the back seat on the far side of the vehicle going through the back seat pockets. my first thoughts are it is a homeless person sleeping in my car..(there are a LOT of homeless people in the area on a regular basis) My instinct takes over and I yell to " get out of my car!" then I realize I want to catch this guy so he can be arrested. I yell for him to stay there and start to run around the back side of the vehicle but he BOLTS and runs away.. A long night on my feet and dress shoes keep me from even trying to catch him.

We call the police who take a look around and file a report.. no one found of course. I am stuck with replacing a window again (happened last year but daytime in a parking lot)
(I have quite a few LEO friends in the area and off duty who work for us on busy nights but are long gone by closing) 3 of them all replied that its too bad I didn't catch the BG. They also reminded me that if he had broken into my vehicle he could easily have broken into others and possibly found a gun in one of those which he might then be in possession of.

Since then I have had an alarm installed and am shopping for a vehicle safe for my weapon so that I can bring my firearm to work and leave in vehicle. I also have a baton that I keep in my bag that I carry into and out of work with me. Hand on the baton as I leave each night.
I also pull the car up to the doors at closing instead of leaving in such a dangerous/vulnerable area.

I understand I should not have tried to apprehend the BG. Too many bad things could have happened.
Here are my questions"
1.) If I would have had my Firearm.. I am not sure I would/should have used it as no clear threat to my life was present.
2.) Would I have been justified unholstering it to keep the BG from running?
3.) Should I have unholstered it for my own protection but NOT tried to stop the BG.
4.) I cannot find any wording in the Texas statutes concerning legally carrying in a 51% establishment once it is closed for business (my thinking is I could rearm after closing while the building is locked and money is being counted. )
5.) The employee handbooks don't mention employees and firearms. one of my LEO friends thought there was an exception for owners and managers being allowed to CC. not sure if this is while open or not. but I can guarantee that If I ask the owners (it is a larger company not a mom and pop store) not only will It not be allowed but could negatively affect my employment by asking)

Long post but since this just happened and I am a relatively new CHL holder I am looking for some advice from the more experienced. This situation could very likely happen again.

Thanks for your advice in advance.

[tommyg]

I would call the police keep a safe distance and hope the police show up before the thief finishes his busisness this will enhance his chances of gettin caught and limit your liability

[baldeagle]

Beware of law enforcement officers giving legal advice. They are not the ones who will be taken to court when you potentially violate the law.

The law allows you to draw your weapon to stop a theft at nightime and to fire if you feel threatened or if the BG tries to escape with items stolen from your car.

Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

The use of force includes drawing your weapon and threatening to use it.

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

I'm not aware of any exception to carrying in prohibited places granted to owners or managers. I would be surprised if there was one.

As to what you should do in a similar situation, only you can make that judgment based upon your knowledge of the law, of your skills with a firearm and of the particular situation. In the case you describe, you would have been justified under the law in drawing your weapon and commanding the BG to remain in the car while you called 911. Had the BG gotten out of the car and started running AND had something stolen in his possession, you would have been justified in shooting him. Whether or not you can live with that decision only you can say. Had the BG exited the vehicle and attempted to attack you, you would have been justified in shooting him.

You could just as easily grabbed your cell phone, called 911 and given them the best description you could of the BG and which way he ran when he exited the vehicle.

In your circumstances, storing a weapon in your car isn't going to help much (especially in the particular incident you experienced), but it's better than having no weapon at all. You got your CHL to protect yourself. It does you no good at all to not arm yourself when you may legally do so.

[MeMelYup]

[quote="Thumpp"
I understand I should not have tried to apprehend the BG. Too many bad things could have happened.
Here are my questions"
1.) If I would have had my Firearm.. I am not sure I would/should have used it as no clear threat to my life was present.
2.) Would I have been justified unholstering it to keep the BG from running?
3.) Should I have unholstered it for my own protection but NOT tried to stop the BG.
4.) I cannot find any wording in the Texas statutes concerning legally carrying in a 51% establishment once it is closed for business (my thinking is I could rearm after closing while the building is locked and money is being counted. )
5.) The employee handbooks don't mention employees and firearms. one of my LEO friends thought there was an exception for owners and managers being allowed to CC. not sure if this is while open or not. but I can guarantee that If I ask the owners (it is a larger company not a mom and pop store) not only will It not be allowed but could negatively affect my employment by asking)

Long post but since this just happened and I am a relatively new CHL holder I am looking for some advice from the more experienced. This situation could very likely happen again.

Thanks for your advice in advance.[/quote]
#1. NA
#2. Yes
#3. Yes
#4. Don't remover where it is. Written permission from the owner. I would have a lock box to secure it in till after you close.
#5. Personally I would secure it in a lock box till after you close. Then keep it concealed and don't speak to anyone about it.

[Zencyl]

In that current situation I would have done the exact same thing. In terms of if I was carrying, unless the BG comes at me I would have left it concealed and done my best to make sure the police know who they are looking for. As far as carrying after you close and no one is in there except for you and the staff, my thinking would be concealed means concealed (that is totally my personal opinion and in no way a suggestion or advice). My personal thought on having a weapon in that situation is I will not shoot someone in the back, even if its a thief (which makes my blood boil). If the robber gets out of the car and wants to fight, i will draw and detain if possible until LEO arrives, if the BG turns tail and runs I will be trying to observe everything I can to give a great description to dispatch on the phone.

[papabear]

That is the reason some need to be able to carry on the job.

[rotor]

I believe it is illegal in Texas to carry a baton. Not illegal to have a chl and concealed carry. Baton is a different matter. Legal people correct me if I am wrong.

[SewTexas]

here's a thought....you might go out, after the other businesses close and move your car closer to the building. When I worked at a business that was in a shopping center but was open late, we would go out and pull our cars up after 9.

[baldeagle]

I believe it is illegal in Texas to carry a baton. Not illegal to have a chl and concealed carry. Baton is a different matter. Legal people correct me if I am wrong.

It does not appear to be.

Sec. 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:

(1) an explosive weapon;

(2) a machine gun;

(3) a short-barrel firearm;

(4) a firearm silencer;

(5) a switchblade knife;

(6) knuckles;

(7) armor-piercing ammunition;

(8) a chemical dispensing device;

(9) a zip gun; or

(10) a tire deflation device.

(Before some of you guys freak out, silencers are not illegal if you have an NFA permit - (c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.)

[brhalltx]

(10) a tire deflation device.

What in the world is a "tire deflation device"? Anybody remember the metal valve stem caps that had the tool to remove the valve stem core on the end of it? I don't think that's what they mean, but that's what comes to mind.

[rotor]

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[o b juan]

Bald eagles quote from chapter 9:42 Texas Penal code..


(B)" the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury".
You are in trouble if a fleeing thief is shot

the opertive words in this quote are "Would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury."

Remeber that a colon or a semi-colon is at the end of each paragraph--
you do not have the complete law until you see a period ..

and anything above the last paragraph is (moot) is that the proper word.

Deadley force may ony be used to stop unlawful deadly force.

Do not shoot a fleeing thief, burglar..

I know that some will disagree, but thats the way thye law is written!!

[9mmfan]

Buried down in 46.02 is a section on Nonapplicability. Paraphrasing, there is a bit stating that 46.02, the unlawful carry of a weapon (handgun, club or illegal knife), does not apply to an alcoholic beverage license or permit holder, OR the employee of a license or permit holder while overseeing the operation of the licensed or permitted premises. Since you are a manager, you should be good to go from a legal standpoint. I think it was on page 47 of the handbook I was given during my first CHL class. It was the 2008 edition. I have no idea how I remember that.


I managed a bar for several years, and CC'd inside daily. Had a discussion about it with our friendly local TABC agent once regarding a situation I would rather not get into at the moment.

I am unaware of a any statute requiring written permission from the owner, though without his or her blessing, you could be setting yourself up for termination. I was fortunate in that my boss wanted me, as well as one of the other managers, to carry. If it were in fact illegal, said permission would do you no good. Business owners cannot authorize you to break the law.

Now I will add the standard I am not a lawyer. This is simply my understanding of the law.

[Jumping Frog]

First let me set the situation that happened to me recently:

I am a manager in a Bar/Restaurant .
I am a CHL Holder but do not bring my firearm to work.

.... I also have a baton that I keep in my bag that I carry into and out of work with me. Hand on the baton as I leave each night.

I believe it is illegal in Texas to carry a baton. Not illegal to have a chl and concealed carry. Baton is a different matter. Legal people correct me if I am wrong.

Sec. 46.02 (UCW) does not apply to a person "supervising the operation of the permitted or licensed premises;". a bar manager. I believe she can legally carry both a club and a handgun. She does not need "permission" from the owner or upper management, but if they are as anti-gun as she believes, then "concealed means concealed". The only time someone should ever find out is after you had to use your handgun to protect yourself.

Personally, if I have to risk losing my job to protect myself from aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery, then so be it.

Outside of the bar, clubs fall under the same exception as knives for CHL holders under the statute language. If you are carrying a concealed handgun and valid license, you are exempted from UCW, including knives and clubs.

Of course, if you are engaging in a deliberate challenge to the law or engaging in behavior that an LEO concludes "needs arrestin'", then it is probable that you'll get arrested anyway and then have to have it settled in court (aka, don't be drunk or belligerent). But I have a hard time believing an LEO is going to arrest a woman manager of any business for having a baton in a dark parking lot in the wee hours of the morning.

Anyway, here is where it is made illegal:

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club . . .

Here is where does not apply:

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY.
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
. . . .
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;
(7) holds an alcoholic beverage permit or license or is an employee of a holder of an alcoholic beverage permit or license if the person is supervising the operation of the permitted or licensed premises;

Of course, we can get into the whole carrying "under the authority of a CHL" discussion, because she would be carrying as a licensed premises supervisor instead of a CHL holder while inside the premises. Note that §46.035(b)(1) also makes it illegal for a CHL holder to carry in a 51% premises. Her defense would be the CHL is not applicable when she is carrying where her CHL is not required.

[EEllis]

Managers at 51% locations can legally carry so it's the owner that is the issue not the law. Carrying a club, extendable baton, is illegal so stop doing that.