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Went to a roadhouse type bar this weekend for some lunch. I wasn't carrying as I was between races (cycling), and I noticed the 51% signs at the door. However, you don't necessarily have to walk inside. This place had an open semi covered lot with a few tables setup that you could eat at. The waitress would come over to you to get your order. It looked like an old warehouse building converted to bar and restaurant. In is situation, would it be legal to carry here? Are you permitted to carry on the premises, just not into the building like you can on school property? Does it matter that thrre were a couple of stages setup and the lot looked like it was used as an outside dance floor?

If the patio is part of the same establishment as the 51% location, then you cannot carry there.

This is truly a gray area of the law that I cannot say how the courts will rule. The problem is that the two different codes involved (Alcoholic Beverage Code and Penal Code) each define premises differently. The Penal Code clearly defines premises as inside the building, as we all know with schools. But the Alcoholic beverage Code defines the licensed premises as the grounds and all buildings and appurtenances, including the adjacent premises if they are controlled by the same person.

The legal question that will need to be settled by the court is if the key word in the Penal Code is "premises" or if it is the phrase "licensed premises". If premises is the definition, you can carry on the patio. If the phrase "licensed premises" takes premises, you cannot carry in the parking lot or on the patio or anywhere else covered by the license.

Where it gets really tricky on this is that the old court precedents use the Alcoholic Beverage Code as the presiding definition. But they all predate the CHL laws being written, so I don't know how reliable they are. This is a case where the courts can go either way.

I recommend not carrying anywhere on the grounds of a licensed premise with a 51% sign, but others have disagreed and said the Penal Code will take over. I can certainly see their arguments.

If they legally serve drinks on the patio then I think you would find yourself on the way to jail pretty quick if anyone found out you were carrying.,

Teamless wrote:If the patio is part of the same establishment as the 51% location, then you cannot carry there.

That's my understanding, too.

This includes if they have some tables set up on the sidewalk in front of the building which they service. You're ok to carry on the sidewalk as long as you don't sit down at the table. At that point you're on part of their establishment.

I don't have a TABC license so I'm not worried about TABC revoking it but discretion is the better part of valor.

bizarrenormality wrote:I don't have a TABC license so I'm not worried about TABC revoking it but discretion is the better part of valor.

You may not have a TABC license to lose, but you do have a CHL you can lose by carrying in a 51% location.

The 30.06 law has specific requirements for effective notice. The 51% law specifically says it only applies inside buildings.

If you're worried about the sidewalk because of TABC rules, you should also worry about a gun in your car for the same reason.

bizarrenormality wrote:The 30.06 law has specific requirements for effective notice. The 51% law specifically says it only applies inside buildings.

If you're worried about the sidewalk because of TABC rules, you should also worry about a gun in your car for the same reason.

No, the 51% law says premises, which includes all areas defined under the license, including sidewalks and patio areas by TABC. It is not like CHL statutes that defines premises as a buiding only. If they can serve alcohol to a person there, then that should be defined as part of the presmises on their license with TABC.

Now, if I am walking down the sidewalk and there is an open patio area and I walk through that, while I may technically be violtating the law by carrying on the premises of a 51% establishment I would not worry about it as long as I am not a patron of the bar.

This is one of my frustrations with the 51%. We frequent icehouses/roadhouses and such on occasion out on the bikes (motorcycles) and never order alcohol because it doesn't mix with two things I'm doing: Riding that powered two wheeler and carrying. I will stop in and grab food and the strongest drink I might order will be iced tea. I completely understand the reasons for the rule, but it is really a pain to secure a firearm on a motorcycle. I'm trying to find a better vest that actually has a GOOD gun pocket. Most are a cavernous area with a narrow opening or have an elastic band that is poorly positioned. At least that way I can place it in my saddlebag so that it is not "displayed" and only worry about keeping my bike in view.

Unfortunately the possibility of irresponsible idiots is higher "importance" than the security of the firearm.

Keith B wrote:No, the 51% law says premises, which includes all areas defined under the license, including sidewalks and patio areas by TABC.

What law is that? I looked at 46.035 in the CHL-16. It says very clearly that somebody with a CHL is not committing an offense under 46.035 by carrying on the sidewalk or parking lot. There's no exception just because the business put tables and chairs on the sidewalk or parking lot.

"Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetfo ... chl-16.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ameer wrote:

Keith B wrote:No, the 51% law says premises, which includes all areas defined under the license, including sidewalks and patio areas by TABC.

What law is that? I looked at 46.035 in the CHL-16. It says very clearly that somebody with a CHL is not committing an offense under 46.035 by carrying on the sidewalk or parking lot. There's no exception just because the business put tables and chairs on the sidewalk or parking lot.

"Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetfo ... chl-16.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See srothsteins post above http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 80#p810280" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Keith B wrote:

Ameer wrote:

Keith B wrote:No, the 51% law says premises, which includes all areas defined under the license, including sidewalks and patio areas by TABC.

What law is that? I looked at 46.035 in the CHL-16. It says very clearly that somebody with a CHL is not committing an offense under 46.035 by carrying on the sidewalk or parking lot. There's no exception just because the business put tables and chairs on the sidewalk or parking lot.

"Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetfo ... chl-16.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See srothsteins post above http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 80#p810280" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I saw it. I also quoted and provided a link for the laws that apply to CHL.

Ameer wrote:

Keith B wrote:See srothsteins post above http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 80#p810280" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I saw it. I also quoted and provided a link for the laws that apply to CHL.

It's just one of those things that is gray and would have to be settled in court. I think if you at a 51% location that is serving alcohol on the patio or sidewalk you best not hang around while armed.

srothstein wrote:The legal question that will need to be settled by the court is if the key word in the Penal Code is "premises" or if it is the phrase "licensed premises". If premises is the definition, you can carry on the patio. If the phrase "licensed premises" takes premises, you cannot carry in the parking lot or on the patio or anywhere else covered by the license.

Does that mean someone without a CHL would be committing a felony if they have a gun in their car at a convenience store that includes the parking lot in the TABC premises?