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I just saw an article about free classes being formed for permitting Utah teachers to carry concealed. The law in Utah already permits concealed carry on school campus. What I am going to say next will certainly ruffle a few feathers on this forum, but that is ok.
I am all for concealed carry. I carry daily. I am NOT for teachers carrying in the classroom. Here is why.
1- Teachers are trained to teach. They are not trained to make a tactical engagement of an armed person on the campus. There is more to engaging a threat in a crowded school than just announcing you have a gun, or pointing and shooting.

2- Student on Teacher assaults are at an all time high. While many will argue this is a justification, I fear students overpowering a teacher and now they are armed. Not a good thing.

3- I see a teacher over reacting to a fight or other disturbance and discharging a firearm. I know these instances might be rare, but one is one too many.

I realize many on this board will disagree with me on this, but that is your right.

dac1842 wrote:I just saw an article about free classes being formed for permitting Utah teachers to carry concealed. The law in Utah already permits concealed carry on school campus. What I am going to say next will certainly ruffle a few feathers on this forum, but that is ok.
I am all for concealed carry. I carry daily. I am NOT for teachers carrying in the classroom. Here is why.
1- Teachers are trained to teach. They are not trained to make a tactical engagement of an armed person on the campus. There is more to engaging a threat in a crowded school than just announcing you have a gun, or pointing and shooting.

2- Student on Teacher assaults are at an all time high. While many will argue this is a justification, I fear students overpowering a teacher and now they are armed. Not a good thing.

3- I see a teacher over reacting to a fight or other disturbance and discharging a firearm. I know these instances might be rare, but one is one too many.

I realize many on this board will disagree with me on this, but that is your right.

I will disagree. I just moved from Utah and have carried there for 8 years. While you are correct that "teachers are trained to teach" they are like any other class of individual in that they have hobbies and may be enthusiasts such as you or I. It's a pretty broad stroke to say that those who will take the class can't/won't get the proper training in their environment. That is like saying night cashiers should not have guns because "cashiers are there to cashier" or cabbies shouldn't have them because "cabbie are trained to drive around". I don't see how a profession would have the need to be intimately entangled with a firearm for a person to be effective. I know, personally, many k-6 teachers as well as college teachers that are more than capable of making an appropriate decision if the need arises. Some of them have CHL's, some of them don't, but all of them have had a discussion with me about their thoughts on armed teachers. Just something to think of. I think with the right training this is not such a terrible idea, especially in a state where many teachers already carry (prior to this "free" offering) and none of the events that you have stated have yet to happen (that I am aware of, at least not above any other regular firearm related accident).

Your arguing something that might happen. Tomorrow morning when you leave the house a jet is going to fall out of the sky and land in your front yard, maybe. Now is that going to stop you from leaving your house tomorrow?

dac1842 wrote: 1- Teachers are trained to teach. They are not trained to make a tactical engagement of an armed person on the campus. There is more to engaging a threat in a crowded school than just announcing you have a gun, or pointing and shooting.

2- Student on Teacher assaults are at an all time high. While many will argue this is a justification, I fear students overpowering a teacher and now they are armed. Not a good thing.

3- I see a teacher over reacting to a fight or other disturbance and discharging a firearm. I know these instances might be rare, but one is one too many.

Speaking as a teacher with a CHL:
1. There is more to engaging a threat ANYWHERE than just announcing you have a gun, or pointing and shooting.

2. Assaults in general are at an all time high. Bad guy overpowers a senior citizen who is carrying and now he is armed. Not a good thing.

3. I see a LEO overreacting to a fight or other disturbance and discharging a firearm. I know these instances might be rare, but one is one too many.

Carrying as a teacher is no different than carrying anywhere else. There are always risks. My responsibility as a CHL holder is to continue my education of the laws in our fine State, continue to practice and train with my firearm DAILY, rehearse as many possible scenarios as I can so that my responses will be appropriate should they occur, and above all, not allow my having a firearm to give me a false sense of power or bravado that I wouldn't have otherwise. These things should be true of any CHL holder anywhere.

Well said Songbird!

Keith B wrote:Well said Songbird!

Unfortunately, you used my screenname and the words quoted from the OP. I in no way said any of those things above and my post was below his. Kindly edit your post to reflect that seeing as it is a misrepresentation of facts.

I am all for concealed carry. I carry daily. I am NOT for taxi drivers carrying in the cabs. Here is why.
1- Taxi drivers are trained to drive taxis. They are not trained to make a tactical engagement of an armed person in a taxi.

I am all for concealed carry. I carry daily. I am NOT for waitresses carrying in restaurants. Here is why.
1- Waitresses are trained to wait on tables. They are not trained to make a tactical engagement of an armed person in a restaurant.


just seeing how it sounded ... I'd think those people have a right to protect themselves at work.

We are not born knowing how to drive a car/truck/motorcycle. It is a learned skill consummated with the issuance of a Driver's License.

Pretty much the same thing can be said about using and/or carrying a gun. There are both CH Licenses and there are Hunting Licenses and both require demonstrated skills and knowledge prior to becoming a Licensee. Just as all do not hunt, let those who want to be able to defend themselves and their wards be allowed to have the legal ability to do so. I think it's called freedom of choice....or something like that.

I don't think a teacher with a chl is any less competent and capable than any of the rest of us.

sfemti33 wrote:
Unfortunately, you used my screenname and the words quoted from the OP. I in no way said any of those things above and my post was below his. Kindly edit your post to reflect that seeing as it is a misrepresentation of facts.

My sincerest apology for the mistake. The post has been corrected.

Songbird wrote:

sfemti33 wrote:
Unfortunately, you used my screenname and the words quoted from the OP. I in no way said any of those things above and my post was below his. Kindly edit your post to reflect that seeing as it is a misrepresentation of facts.

My sincerest apology for the mistake. The post has been corrected.

Thanks

dac1842 wrote:I just saw an article about free classes being formed for permitting Utah teachers to carry concealed. The law in Utah already permits concealed carry on school campus. What I am going to say next will certainly ruffle a few feathers on this forum, but that is ok.
I am all for concealed carry. I carry daily. I am NOT for teachers carrying in the classroom. Here is why.

I was discussing this with my sister-in-law and my nephews fiancé, both of whom teach elementary classes in different districts in Texas. Both were in favor of teachers being allowed to conceal carry as a last line of defense if someone makes it to their class. The would prefer the main security be provided by administrators or security personnel. They were also OK with the NRA plan if the armed individuals were outside or in the admin offices.

I'm impressed with the State of Utah for bucking the national trend and allowing teachers to carry in their classrooms.

1. I'm not in favor of "arming teachers" This implies that we force someone who doesn't want to carry a gun to do so. Allowing a teacher who has already made the decision to carry and who has invested personal time in accomplishing it legally to do so in the classroom is entirely different. I personally see no difference in a teacher carrying in Wal-Mart where there are kids and carrying in the classroom where there are kids. It the school environment makes something different, that something needs to be fixed.

I'm not in favor of turning teachers into school security. At least to start, I'm in favor of the NRA proposal to place trained professionals in schools. Security plans can be worked up from there. A teacher with a CHL is a last line of defense, not a security plan.

2. Student assaults on teachers are at an all time high. Those assaults should be punished under the law just like any other assault. Then student assaults wouldn't be so high. In the mean time, concealed is concealed and kids shouldn't know that the teacher is carrying in the class room any more than they would know if that teacher were carrying in Wal-Mart

Students bring guns to school. Not a good thing. I'm far more concerned about a self-armed student than I am a student figuring out that a teacher has a CHL and is armed and trying to take the gun away.

3. Teachers might overreact to a disturbance. But I suspect that the saying "an armed society is a polite society" would apply to teachers. I'm more cautious about getting into a confrontation now than when I didn't carry 24/7. I suspect that a teacher doesn't want to go to jail for over-reacting to something anymore than I do. 15 years and 600,000 CHLS in Texas suggest that the behavior of those choose to get a CHL is magnitudes better than the rest of society. I'll roll with that any time. I accept that this is not a perfect world and refuse to define our society by the random miscreants in it.

Hubby and I have discussed the same issue as I work in a school. I am not a teacher but "the nurse", so I am in a bit of a different situation than most school employees. I may be dealing 1:1 with students, with an entire class, or grade level, with a staff group, and occasionally a parent group. I am often faced on 1:1 dealings with parents as well. Some of these are not comfortable as I am not always able to comply with their requests, and they are not always fond of how I handled a situation with their child. I think through and visualize different scenarios in my school situation. Honestly, there are staff members that I would be very afraid of if they carried at school - or anywhere for that matter.

One thing we discussed, and I have briefly discussed in passing at lunch with my principal, is that the staff should have to carry ON BODY! No purse or desk! Someone suggested "strategically located gun safes" to which I said the goblins would know what areas to "defend" and if they weren't secured or someone "shared" the combination, adding unlocking in a stressful situation... not the best choice. Same as "only the principal carries" - they would know who to take out first, and the principal isn't always on campus. AND there are principals/administrators I wouldn't want to be around if they were carrying.

The other thing we have discussed is requiring Continuing education for those carrying in schools. I know TOO many people who the only practice they do is qualifying and then a range trip or two a year to a static target. They never even practice in their heads about how to handle situations. We can't require this of everyone, but I would sure feel better if folks in buildings full of kids with thin walls had a little advanced training at the very least.

I like the idea Israel has of former military trained parents and grandparents working in the schools - their teachers are armed as well, BUT they have been trained. I love my staff, but many get upset at the thought of not opening the door for any reason during lockdown drills, even if a child is begging at the door. They thought me cold (I had the dubious honor of explaining the lockdown procedure) when I stated that should the goblin be there forcing the child to knock the whole class and teacher would be at greater risk should they open the door. They have never allowed themselves to think about the evil that walks amongst us and call those of us that do "paranoid". Notice I said "many" not all. JMPHO.