Schools, Churches, and CHLs

[TacShot]

Let me set up some situations over which I have a question or two. You wish to attend a church service on a university campus. The church is a stand-alone building, not 30.06 posted, roads, parking lot, and sidewalk lead right up to the church door. Can you carry in that church? It would appear to me that you can. Second situation, totally different location and a little trickier. A church is not 30.06 posted, but has a fully acredited primary K-8 school run by the church, connected to the church and separated only by a doorway. You can access the church through the main entrance from the parking lot without ever going through the school. I am open on this one. The third situation, is a church, not 30.06 posted, and has classrooms for various Sunday School classes, some in session during the services. This would be similar to most churches in this country. I would think it permissible to carry in this last situation. I would appreciate your opinions especially from those familiar with law.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Situation 1: Cannot carry. It's a school building.
Situation 2: Carry in the church.
Situation 3: Carry.

Chas.

[thenick_ttu]

Similar to situation #1, my church meets at an elementary school on Sundays. We pay rent, electricity, janitorial services, etc for the time we use the building. When we meet, the building is not used as a school building but rather a house of worship, could I legally carry?

[TacShot]

Thank you, Charles. It pays to ask! The fact that the university church is a school building caught me by surprise. Are you basing it on it being a building where the activity, no matter what type of activity, is sponsored by the educational institution by virtue of being on the university property? Is the definition so broad as to apply to all buildings on a campus, including, for example, maintenance or storage buildings?

[fickman]

Thank you, Charles. It pays to ask! The fact that the university church is a school building caught me by surprise. Are you basing it on it being a building where the activity, no matter what type of activity, is sponsored by the educational institution by virtue of being on the university property? Is the definition so broad as to apply to all buildings on a campus, including, for example, maintenance or storage buildings?

If it's on school-owned property, it's a school building.

At the University of North Texas, the Baptist Student Ministry is on private property that is surrounded by University property. You can access the BSM without going into a school building, but you would walk across campus property (unless you park at the BSM. . .which. . . good luck). It's my understanding that you could carry there.

For contrast, I believe the Robert Carr Chapel at TCU is school-owned, so you could not carry there - even at a wedding on the weekend in the summer.

[Keith B]

Thank you, Charles. It pays to ask! The fact that the university church is a school building caught me by surprise. Are you basing it on it being a building where the activity, no matter what type of activity, is sponsored by the educational institution by virtue of being on the university property? Is the definition so broad as to apply to all buildings on a campus, including, for example, maintenance or storage buildings?

I'll jump in here and say that is my thought. If a building is owned by the school, then it is a 'school building' and the activities conducted would be sponsored by the school. It would also apply to school administration buildings, and mainenance and storage buildings, becasue activites that occur there are directed by the school.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Thank you, Charles. It pays to ask! The fact that the university church is a school building caught me by surprise. Are you basing it on it being a building where the activity, no matter what type of activity, is sponsored by the educational institution by virtue of being on the university property? Is the definition so broad as to apply to all buildings on a campus, including, for example, maintenance or storage buildings?

Correct. Now comes the "lawyer speak;" there is no case law interpreting this part of the statute. That said, the code focuses on the property not the activity. Also, the definition of "premises" that applies to schools and elsewhere, focuses on buildings, not the activities that take place in the buildings.

If it were otherwise, then places like libraries and other government-owned buildings could claim that the library is off limits because students are present.

Chas.

[C-dub]

Thank you, Charles. It pays to ask! The fact that the university church is a school building caught me by surprise. Are you basing it on it being a building where the activity, no matter what type of activity, is sponsored by the educational institution by virtue of being on the university property? Is the definition so broad as to apply to all buildings on a campus, including, for example, maintenance or storage buildings?

Correct. Now comes the "lawyer speak;" there is no case law interpreting this part of the statute. That said, the code focuses on the property not the activity. Also, the definition of "premises" that applies to schools and elsewhere, focuses on buildings, not the activities that take place in the buildings.

If it were otherwise, then places like libraries and other government-owned buildings could claim that the library is off limits because students are present.

Chas.

That is precisely why I am surprised at your answer to situation #2. It is a building where only a doorway separates the church and school. I thought this would be a "no carry."

[RPB]

Thank you, Charles. It pays to ask! The fact that the university church is a school building caught me by surprise. Are you basing it on it being a building where the activity, no matter what type of activity, is sponsored by the educational institution by virtue of being on the university property? Is the definition so broad as to apply to all buildings on a campus, including, for example, maintenance or storage buildings?

Correct. Now comes the "lawyer speak;" there is no case law interpreting this part of the statute. That said, the code focuses on the property not the activity. Also, the definition of "premises" that applies to schools and elsewhere, focuses on buildings, not the activities that take place in the buildings.

If it were otherwise, then places like libraries and other government-owned buildings could claim that the library is off limits because students are present.

Chas.

That is precisely why I am surprised at your answer to situation #2. It is a building where only a doorway separates the church and school. I thought this would be a "no carry."

In some spots ...Only a trickle of water separates Texas and Mexico ...
Separated must be a key concept/word
Don't cross that separating boundary.

Like "secure area" of an airport/jail-police Station etc ... a foot or so/a few inches .. makes a difference.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Thank you, Charles. It pays to ask! The fact that the university church is a school building caught me by surprise. Are you basing it on it being a building where the activity, no matter what type of activity, is sponsored by the educational institution by virtue of being on the university property? Is the definition so broad as to apply to all buildings on a campus, including, for example, maintenance or storage buildings?

Correct. Now comes the "lawyer speak;" there is no case law interpreting this part of the statute. That said, the code focuses on the property not the activity. Also, the definition of "premises" that applies to schools and elsewhere, focuses on buildings, not the activities that take place in the buildings.

If it were otherwise, then places like libraries and other government-owned buildings could claim that the library is off limits because students are present.

Chas.

That is precisely why I am surprised at your answer to situation #2. It is a building where only a doorway separates the church and school. I thought this would be a "no carry."

The church owns the building, not the school. TPC §46.035(f)(3) defines "premises" to be "a building or portion of a building . . ." This definition was adopted in TPC §46.03(c)(1). Thus, since the church owns the building and not the school, then only a "portion of [the] building" would be off-limits.

Now let me throw something else out here; just for fun. I was being conservative and my answer to the second scenario. I actually believe that the portion of the building used as a school would be off-limits only during school hours with students and or teachers present. I didn't say this earlier because I was being conservative and didn't want to put someone out on the cutting edge of the law. This opinion would change if the building were actually owned by the school.

Chas.

[smoothoperator]

Now let me throw something else out here; just for fun. I was being conservative and my answer to the second scenario. I actually believe that the portion of the building used as a school would be off-limits only during school hours with students and or teachers present. I didn't say this earlier because I was being conservative and didn't want to put someone out on the cutting edge of the law. This opinion would change if the building were actually owned by the school.

That makes sense because then it would be like situation 1 in the OP.

While we're playing hypotheticals, suppose a school leased a building (or a portion of a building) for graduation or prom. Would that be off limits as a school sponsored activity? If so, would the actual owner of the building be legal to carry on their own property during the event, or does renting to a school deny their rights?

[C-dub]

That is precisely why I am surprised at your answer to situation #2. It is a building where only a doorway separates the church and school. I thought this would be a "no carry."

The church owns the building, not the school. TPC §46.035(f)(3) defines "premises" to be "a building or portion of a building . . ." This definition was adopted in TPC §46.03(c)(1). Thus, since the church owns the building and not the school, then only a "portion of [the] building" would be off-limits.

Now let me throw something else out here; just for fun. I was being conservative and my answer to the second scenario. I actually believe that the portion of the building used as a school would be off-limits only during school hours with students and or teachers present. I didn't say this earlier because I was being conservative and didn't want to put someone out on the cutting edge of the law. This opinion would change if the building were actually owned by the school.

Chas.

That's why you get the big bucks Charles.

My daughter goes to a Catholic school, which is owned by the church, that is not attached to the church. Does that mean that outside of normal school hours it might legal to carry there? With the exception of a school sponsored event like a volleyball or basketball game, of course. I realize that window might be really narrow and is untested.

[Keith B]

That is precisely why I am surprised at your answer to situation #2. It is a building where only a doorway separates the church and school. I thought this would be a "no carry."

The church owns the building, not the school. TPC §46.035(f)(3) defines "premises" to be "a building or portion of a building . . ." This definition was adopted in TPC §46.03(c)(1). Thus, since the church owns the building and not the school, then only a "portion of [the] building" would be off-limits.

Now let me throw something else out here; just for fun. I was being conservative and my answer to the second scenario. I actually believe that the portion of the building used as a school would be off-limits only during school hours with students and or teachers present. I didn't say this earlier because I was being conservative and didn't want to put someone out on the cutting edge of the law. This opinion would change if the building were actually owned by the school.

Chas.

That's why you get the big bucks Charles.

My daughter goes to a Catholic school, which is owned by the church, that is not attached to the church. Does that mean that outside of normal school hours it might legal to carry there? With the exception of a school sponsored event like a volleyball or basketball game, of course. I realize that window might be really narrow and is untested.

I'm gonna jump back in here. I think if the building, or portion of teh church building is ONLY a school and not used for other functions, then it would be off limits at all times. However, if it was used for a school only when school was in session, but used for say Sunday school or other youth group, etc at other times, then you could carry during those other times as long as it was not posted 30.06 or you had received notice.

[HighHandicap]

I was just reviewing the latest CHL codes and noticed section 46.035(b)(6)

"(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person: (6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship."

Maybe I'm misreading this but it looks to me that churches no longer have to post 30.06 signs? I really hope I'm reading that wrong. It's been a while since I've been through my CHL class so maybe someone can refresh my memory on why we can carry at church?

[WildBill]

I was just reviewing the latest CHL codes and noticed section 46.035(b)(6)

"(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person: (6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship."

Maybe I'm misreading this but it looks to me that churches no longer have to post 30.06 signs? I really hope I'm reading that wrong. It's been a while since I've been through my CHL class so maybe someone can refresh my memory on why we can carry at church?

Maybe people miss this. You need to read the entire statute all the way down to the end where the code was revised.

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.