Man accused of inproperly passing Concealed Weapons students

[Salty1]

This happened in South Carolina and made me wonder why any instructor would do such a thing. It seems to me that this so called instructor was after the fast cash versus providing valuable training and a needed service. I know that if I was a student of his I would have reported him personally, when I took my original CHL class at Denton County Sports (great class and instructor) I was there for the knowledge and information, the plastic I received was the result of my commitment to learn the specific laws of Texas and to be prepared. I have a co-worker who received his original Texas CHL after spending 4 hours in the so called "instructors" house with 5 others and they never went to the range, a year later he asked me to go shoot with him as he had a Browning BDA and had not shot a handgun in 20 years and wanted some pointers......

http://www2.wspa.com/news/2012/jan/26/2 ... r-3122654/

[PeteCamp]

Funny you mention this. I went to the range with a guy who was a friend of my kids. He needed help loading his 9mm! When it stovepiped, he had no idea how to clear it. He finally offered that he did not fire his weapon to obtain his CHL (he actually showed me a valid Texas CHL). I asked him about his class and he said it was given by a relative of his. They got no instruction on anything. I asked if he took a written test and he replied "no." I wonder just how many folks have been given a CHL in this manner? I didn't press him on who the instructor was, but he gave me the impression that he was a retired LEO and that as far as he knew, that was how you got a CHL in Texas!

[Kythas]

It's scary that this could be happening here in Texas. I have to say my instructor was great. She made the class very entertaining and was quite knowledgeable and informed.

[wgoforth]

In TX, the instructor must sign off on how many hours material was covered and must total minimum 10. Since one is giving false info to the state, it is a felony. Yet I know right now of several telling me about various instructors who kept them 6 hours INCLUDING the shooting portion (which lasted a couple of hours). Another nearby instructor had them to shoot the 3 yard portion only (a norther had blown through) and when a student asked about other required yardage, the instructor asked "Do YOU want to stand out here in this cold?" I would have said "No, lets schedule time when it warms up." In instructors school were told about 2 instructors currently in prison for falsifying such. One was passing the forms out to family and friends and another was only taking a couple of hours and a student turned him in. So I know this type of thing does happen even in Texas unfortunatly. While I beleve 10 hours to be excessive, and we are trying to get the state to lower it, we have to meet state requirements until it is changed. The state does send undercover auditors into classes to keep us on our toes, as we never know who may be one.

[Matt78665]

Yikes. I know my class was too long (15 hrs) but at least they covered EVRYTHING you were supposed to. I hope these so called instructors can be stopped. It will give us all a bad name

[Oldgringo]

This happened in South Carolina and made me wonder why any instructor would do such a thing. It seems to me that this so called instructor was after the fast cash...

It appears that you've answered your own question. I question whether a reasonably intelligent adult needs 10 hours of classroom time but there are definitely legal items and responsibilities that need to be presented, discussed and understood plus the range time.

[wgoforth]

The class in South Carolina has a time requirement, as well as a shooting requirement. However, having been to both Texas and South Carolina classes, I can say the Texas classes were much better. The material to be covered is outlined by the state and very organized.

The material to be covered in South Carolina is kind of hit-and-miss.

For instance, if you pay attention to a class in Texas, you will know just about everything pertaining to CHL in the state; where to carry, how to react, etc.

In South Carolina, you can sit through classes and still emerge with questions. It is not very organized.

I can see a lot of room for people taking liberties in South Carolina.

It is still hit and miss in TX as well...as it will only be as good as the instructor. I'm sure that is so in SC as well. Instructors here can be organized or unorganized. Some instructors here are still teaching you cannot carry in church buildings, which was changed back in 1997 for example. Some instructors here will teach things that contradict other instructors (largely dealing with signage, use of alcohol, etc) due to their trying to interpret the Penal Code rather than reading the Penal Code. So yes...IF an instructor is teaching "by the book" and he himself is organized, then yes you can have a good class. I suspect that to be true in SC would it not?

[wgoforth]

This happened in South Carolina and made me wonder why any instructor would do such a thing. It seems to me that this so called instructor was after the fast cash...

It appears that you've answered your own question. I question whether a reasonably intelligent adult needs 10 hours of classroom time but there are definitely legal items and responsibilities that need to be presented, discussed and understood plus the range time.

I agree, however if it is the law, it is what it is. If I only use state material, I could probably cover everything in it in 6 hours. 10 hours not only belabors it, but they forget the teaching maxum that the brain can only retain what the posterior can endure.

[MoJo]

Yikes. I know my class was too long (15 hrs) but at least they covered EVRYTHING you were supposed to. I hope these so called instructors can be stopped. It will give us all a bad name

The Texas course is 10 hours minimum (including range time) 15 hours maximum (including range time) you got the "Super sized" class.

[wgoforth]

Yikes. I know my class was too long (15 hrs) but at least they covered EVRYTHING you were supposed to. I hope these so called instructors can be stopped. It will give us all a bad name

The Texas course is 10 hours minimum (including range time) 15 hours maximum (including range time) you got the "Super sized" class.

The 10 hours is INSTRUCTION time. You may count the minutes that person was actually shooting, but not the entire time the class spent at the range. ie, if you have a large class and the entire class is standing at the range for 2 hours waiting to shoot, you may not count that entire time. If that person is at the firing line shooting for 15 minutes, you may only count 15 minutes. They went over that aspect thoroughly in the recent Instructor School because they said so many were violating this aspect. Nor may you count travel time to and from the range. Not saying that isn't what you intended, just clarifying.

[Crossfire]

The 10 hours is INSTRUCTION time. You may count the minutes that person was actually shooting, but not the entire time the class spent at the range. ie, if you have a large class and the entire class is standing at the range for 2 hours waiting to shoot, you may not count that entire time. If that person is at the firing line shooting for 15 minutes, you may only count 15 minutes. They went over that aspect thoroughly in the recent Instructor School because they said so many were violating this aspect. Nor may you count travel time to and from the range.

I believe that watching other people shoot can also be considered "instruction time". If DPS says you can learn by watching certain approved videos, then certainly you can learn something by watching others take their range proficiency testing. Especially if the instructor is offering instruction on safety, stance, sight alignment, trigger control, etc.

[wgoforth]

The 10 hours is INSTRUCTION time. You may count the minutes that person was actually shooting, but not the entire time the class spent at the range. ie, if you have a large class and the entire class is standing at the range for 2 hours waiting to shoot, you may not count that entire time. If that person is at the firing line shooting for 15 minutes, you may only count 15 minutes. They went over that aspect thoroughly in the recent Instructor School because they said so many were violating this aspect. Nor may you count travel time to and from the range.

I believe that watching other people shoot can also be considered "instruction time". If DPS says you can learn by watching certain approved videos, then certainly you can learn something by watching others take their range proficiency testing. Especially if the instructor is offering instruction on safety, stance, sight alignment, trigger control, etc.

And I agree, in fact my wife and I said to each other you can learn from watching others during that portion. But the comment was made in instructor school that only the time THEY are shooting was what you could count. IF an auditor sat in, could there be a problem? That would be my concern. Now to be clear, they did say you can give instruction at the range about gun safety, gun storage, etc. and that be counted. But their concern was that people just standing waiting before or after they shoot did not qualify as instruction time. An example might be a class my wife was in. The ones shooting went to the various yardage lines while the others sat talking and waiting their turn. One fellow had to leave to guy buy a gun during that time. According to the DPS school a few weeks ago, that doesn't count. Not saying they are correct, but that is what their interpretation of the requirements are.

[Crossfire]

When you were at instructor school, if your time at the range only included the time you were ACTUALLY on the line shooting, would you have met the minimum class time required for your class? 28 or 36 hours?

Which, oh by the way, has been reduced somewhere along the way from the original 40 hours required. How did that happen?

[wgoforth]

When you were at instructor school, if your time at the range only included the time you were ACTUALLY on the line shooting, would you have met the minimum class time required for your class? 28 or 36 hours?

Which, oh by the way, has been reduced somewhere along the way from the original 40 hours required. How did that happen?

Good point Crossfire. Of course that's assuming things are fair and equitable (that they, DPS, will let us get away with what they do). Here is my situation here.... 15 students and the range only has 2 pistol target stands. I don't know I can justify the entire time that folks are standing waiting. Thoughts? And I don'y know how the reduction of 40 down to 36 occured... I sure aint complaining though! The class time during the week was 36 hours (Mon-Thurs, 8 classroom hours) then range time on Fri. So we for sure completed 36 instruction hours.

(Edit... my math was off obviously. 8 x 4 is STILL 32, my bad).