TexasCHLforum.com

Hey, folks- haven't posted in a very long time, but I felt that this might be of some interest. It's a thread I saw in another forum regarding a Harris County Constable that allegedly used an expired CHL as probable cause for a search during a traffic stop.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=245678


Best to everyone for the new year.


O.R.

The incident, as reported, describes an egregious abuse of authority. Were I the original poster, I would certainly consult a civil rights attorney, and make a formal record of the complaint.

Kevin

The part that I thought was the most interesting was:

"I hired an attorney to help me with the speeding ticket that I received and told him about the events that transpired during the stop. He didn't think much about it at all. He made a comment similar to this: "Doesn't surprise me. The Harris county D.A. does some pretty crazy stuff... Wouldn't surprise me if he authorized the search."

I think we have the root of the problem listed right here.

How does a DA Authorize a search? I thought a judge had to issue a warrant, or was the High School Civics class I took in 1992 now out of date?

Google Carroll v. United States and United States v. Ross. The police have never needed a search warrant to search a vehicle.

- Jim

Paladin wrote:The part that I thought was the most interesting was:

"I hired an attorney to help me with the speeding ticket that I received and told him about the events that transpired during the stop. He didn't think much about it at all. He made a comment similar to this: "Doesn't surprise me. The Harris county D.A. does some pretty crazy stuff... Wouldn't surprise me if he authorized the search."

I think we have the root of the problem listed right here.

Generally speaking, attorneys who handle traffic tickets are into quick turnover, not protracted civil rights battles.

That's why I said I'd consult a civil rights attorney.

Kevin

seamusTX wrote:Google Carroll v. United States and United States v. Ross. The police have never needed a search warrant to search a vehicle.

- Jim

Ross derives from Carroll, and in both cases probable cause is required.

Having an expired CHL in your wallet is not PC to handcuff you and sit you on the side of the road for 40 minutes while your car is thoroughly tossed.

And BTW, Carroll was a terrible ruling. It upheld the search wherein an officer cut up the upholstery to find liquor bottles hidden in the seat. Isn't it funny how the War On Alcohol was waged in the same way that the War On Drugs is being waged 80 years later?

Kevin

KBCraig wrote:Ross derives from Carroll, and in both cases probable cause is required.

Having an expired CHL in your wallet is not PC ...

And BTW, Carroll was a terrible ruling.

Probable cause is required. A search warrant is not.

I agree with you on the other points. The Supreme Court has made a hash of this area of law.

There was a case a few years ago where the police searched a motorist because he had an NRA bumper sticker. That is also not legitimate probable cause.

- Jim

About unlawful searches...some--maybe many--occur because of officer error caused by poor training. Administrator or managerial incompetence, low morale, low pay, and low hiring standards all impact this issue. My opinion is that these negatives are more likely to be found in a large constable department than in any other LE group. Deputy constables occupy the bottom rung on the ladder.

If it were me, my concern would be to bring this error to a supervisor so these guys would know better next time. Remember that supervisors, especially those that are desk bound, dread complaints or lawsuits because they reflect negatively on their leadership.

Carrying an expired chl shouldn't be an issue. Doesn't such info show up when tag numbers are run?

loosecannon wrote:About unlawful searches...some--maybe many--occur because of officer error caused by poor training. Administrator or managerial incompetence, low morale, low pay, and low hiring standards all impact this issue. My opinion is that these negatives are more likely to be found in a large constable department than in any other LE group. Deputy constables occupy the bottom rung on the ladder.

While you are correct about some of the causes of the problem, especially low pay attracting lower quality officers and lack of proper supervision, I would say that this is more of an explanation than an excuse. Their behavior is wrong and criminal and that is inexcusable for a peace officer in Texas.

I am not sure I would agree with you about the place on the rung for Deputy Constables. I have met some very good ones, as well as some bad peace officers at other types of agencies. I do know that in many of the larger cities, the constable offices are not well regarded by the city officers, but I always felt this was just snobbery at its worst.

If it were me, my concern would be to bring this error to a supervisor so these guys would know better next time. Remember that supervisors, especially those that are desk bound, dread complaints or lawsuits because they reflect negatively on their leadership.

I would file the complaint, but I would also file a lawsuit immediately. I would file the lawsuit as quickly as I could so I could subpoena the videotape of the stop before it disappears (probably within 90 days of the stop). It is possible that there will not be a video tape, but then the statement of what was probable cause would be disputed and they would claim he gave permission. If they are this bad, don't trust them the rest of the way either.


EDIT: Incidentally, on the lawsuit, i would file in federal court naming the officers and the department, both individually and severally. Under 42 USC 1983, the individual officer is responsible for the civil rights violation as well as the department.

Carrying an expired chl shouldn't be an issue. Doesn't such info show up when tag numbers are run?

No, nothing shows up when tags are run but the owner and the stolen status. If you run a DL, it will also show the CHL but I don't know if the expired CHL will show up then or not. I would guess it depends on when it expired.

Thank you for your reply. You made valid points. One thought is that there still remain gray areas about chl issues, and hopefully these will clear up before too long.

About attorneys: the client should be prepared to spend thousands of dollars to present a case that would otherwise not bring in big bucks.

Changing the subject, we need to remember that to defend oneself in criminal and/ or civil court for choosing to use deadly force will be so costly that financial ruin is almost guaranteed. Careers can be damaged or lost because of negative publicity. Going to prison is another possibility. I say this here because all of us must remain aware of potential pitfalls that may face us.

loosecannon wrote: About attorneys: the client should be prepared to spend thousands of dollars to present a case that would otherwise not bring in big bucks.

The constables know this and that why they continue to act like jerks. Perhaps the ACLU - TSRA - NRA could chip in on this one. What bothers me about this is that this isn't just a rogue cop, it sounds like a corrupt system, and that even DA might be in on this. A successful suit will like have a chilling affect on the whole dept.

I always wondered. If cops and constables have enough cops to stop and harass folks for traffic violation Perhaps they have run out of crime to fight, or investigate. Perhaps we have to many cops on the payroll. Constables are suppose to chase down check kiters and assist with evictions.

First, I wouldn't offer an expired licence or credentials for any form of ID in a traffic stop...

Second, I would with all due respect, refuse to consent to a search, just out of general purpose...P.C., or not...If I am delayed, so be it...I will absolutely give zero reason to even ask...If its not in plain view, its nobody's business...

Some may say, again, if you have nothing to hide, why fight or refuse it...

Well...again, I am hoping no one takes that as an insult, or radical "anti-something/anything" stance...

One thing that does come to mind, and its something that I have never thought about because it is something that won't happen to me anyway...

For lack of any other example, if you allow your Texas CHL to lapse or expire...Will the license still come up (as expired) on the check if you are pulled over for a traffic violation???

I've just never encountered that on any discussion, or have ever thought to ask the question...

Traffic stops often result in tickets and fines, which make up a large chunk of revenue for city or county. Cops are pressured one way or another to produce revenue, although this fact is usually denied. Also, traffic stops and tickets are indicators that cops are performing. Having worked at a county jail, I've observed that when its raining hard, they don't arrest people. This is also true during bowl games, playoffs,etc.

Locally, we have a good police force. Be careful in the small towns because they frequently concentrate on issuing traffic tickets.

Often traffic stops result in drug busts, especially on I-35.

Our system generally requires multiple people to all come to the same conclusion before someone is convicted (e.g., arresting officer, DA, grand jury, judge, jury). However, you might be surprised how few people it would take to make your life extremely difficult and costly. It only takes a few well placed individuals that have a bias against whatever you represent to really make your life suck.