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30.06 sign at Nursing Home
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:26 am
by Commander
I need some validation for my peace of mind.
Wednesday, I moved my Dad to a nursing home. Posted on the front (glass) door is a 30.06 sign on an 8 1/2" X 11" piece of red paper. The wording is fully compliant; however, the lettering is about 3/8" to 1/4" in size - the small black lettering on the red makes it difficult to read. I actually had to stop opening the door to read it.
The first time I was there, I was already at the door and went on in because I thought it was an invalid sign. The second time I was there, I had second thoughts and left my gun in my truck.
I'm going again today - Carry or No carry?
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:50 am
by Lucky45
The wording is fully compliant; however, the lettering is about 3/8" to 1/4" in size
Did you actually measure it or just estimating?
the small black lettering on the red makes it difficult to read
I think this meets the requirement of
contrasting colors
I actually had to stop opening the door to read it.
I think
it worked and served the purpose of
giving notice, otherwise you would have passed on by.
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:03 pm
by Commander
I was going by the following section of the law. The lettering on the sign is definitley not 1" tall as required. If it was 1" there is no way all the required statements would fit on 8 1/2" X 11". Per the law, the sign must comply with the 1" requirement. My question is: If the lettering size does not meet the criteria, is the sign okay to ignore? (Nit picky? yeah)
GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter
25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51
percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage
Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business
premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).
(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code,
or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety
Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or
nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements
of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign
include on its face the number "51".
(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give
notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person
licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises.
The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least
one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed
in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in
a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:18 pm
by longtooth
S&W,
Charles can comment on this & the legal eagles. I also consider the sign as not compliant if the lettering is not 1" high. The "Prominantly Posted" wording is arguable. the NH will say it was while you say it was not.
What I have worried about over the signs that have the correct wording in English & Spanish but not prominent or contrasting letters & background is that you most likely WILL win it in court. In court is the opprative word though, where you are likely to win. If you are in a city w/ a anti-gun DA ie Harris County, It could cost you a lot of money that you may not want to spend on that.
Bottom line is, IANAL nor do I play one on TV. You decide.
There will be those that would carry & say as long as I dont need it then no one knows. If I really need it worry about it then. Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. That is valid for sure.
If you choose this one carry small in size & where you can cover it completely. Shoulder carry & tuck elbow so no one can accidently bump you & feel it while caring for you Dad. Always have to have a jacket though. Maybe ankle holster, but be carefull crossing your legs. The new rig I just put together is easy to cover w/ my elbow at 3:00. It is small. Smart Carry. Takes practice & a slow draw.
Every option has its trade offs. Consider them all & do what you are comfortable with. When you decide, then decide that you can live w/ it if trouble raises its ugly head.
LT
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:01 pm
by KBCraig
Lucky45 wrote:The wording is fully compliant; however, the lettering is about 3/8" to 1/4" in size
Did you actually measure it or just estimating?
He said it was on an 8.5x11" piece of paper; estimation isn't even needed. A proper notice takes almost six square feet.
I wouldn't worry about this sign, any more than those at Taco Cabana. The law is very explicit, and if the sign doesn't meet the requirements, then you haven't been given notice, and have not trespassed.
A judge might rule that 3/4" letters, or white letters on clear glass, constitute "close enough". But there's no way a judge will rule that something on 8.5x11 paper even begins to comply with the law.
Kevin
Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:57 pm
by Commander
I went back today. Left my 9mm in the truck. As I went in, I placed my
pen up against the letter on the sign. Using the tip of the pen as a gauge, the letters are approximately 1/4" tall. Now, are letters 3/4" shorter than required by statute enough to void the 30.06 warning?
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:58 am
by srothstein
S&W6946 wrote:I went back today. Left my 9mm in the truck. As I went in, I placed my
pen up against the letter on the sign. Using the tip of the pen as a gauge, the letters are approximately 1/4" tall. Now, are letters 3/4" shorter than required by statute enough to void the 30.06 warning?
I think you would win on appeal, but at the trial court it is definitely going to depend on the judge. The problem is going to court to begin with, as others have noted.
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:28 am
by Liberty
srothstein wrote:S&W6946 wrote:I went back today. Left my 9mm in the truck. As I went in, I placed my
pen up against the letter on the sign. Using the tip of the pen as a gauge, the letters are approximately 1/4" tall. Now, are letters 3/4" shorter than required by statute enough to void the 30.06 warning?
I think you would win on appeal, but at the trial court it is definitely going to depend on the judge. The problem is going to court to begin with, as others have noted.
I think that the law is very clear that the type needs to be at least 1 inch high. Very few DA's in Texas would want to push this. Things like a "conspicuous location", and "contrasting colors" leave a bit of room for interpertation. Phrasing like at "least 1 inch" high do not.
then agin IANAL
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:19 pm
by KRM45
My take on this is that each one of us has to let our concsience (sp?) be our guide.
The fact of the matter is that if you are properly concealed you will likely never even be questioned about it. If someone does notice it they would then have to call the police and press charges.
That having been said each individual needs to ask themselves what the right thing for them to do is.
If I felt the right thing to do was to leave my gun secured in my vehicle, then I would do that. If that was my choice though I would also think about sending a letter to the home about the benefit of allowing CHL holder to remain armed while visiting thier establishment. I would not mention the validity of the sign in my letter though. I would not want to have them put up a compliant sign and ruin it for the folks that chose to ignore the non-compliant sign.
Just my 2 cents.
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:51 pm
by 30Carb
S&W6946 wrote:
(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code,
or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety
Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or
nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements
of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign
include on its face the number "51".
I believe you are missing the point.
The hospital and nursing home are already off limits to licensed and unlicensed carry by law, with or without the legally correct signs. It is our responsibility to know this. A hospital/nursing does not have the option to prohibit.
It is the hospital's/nursing home's responsibility to remind us by posting the correct legal signs.
Failure on the part of the hospital/nursing home to remind us in a legally correct manner not to carry inside does not relieve us of complying with the law that prevents us from carrying there.
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:08 am
by casselthief
I believe that privately owned hospitals (ie. HCA hospitals), you can carry in.
same thing with nursing homes.
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:23 pm
by barres
30Carb wrote:S&W6946 wrote:
(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code,
or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety
Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or
nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements
of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign
include on its face the number "51".
I believe you are missing the point.
The hospital and nursing home are already off limits to licensed and unlicensed carry by law, with or without the legally correct signs. It is our responsibility to know this. A hospital/nursing does not have the option to prohibit.
It is the hospital's/nursing home's responsibility to remind us by posting the correct legal signs.
Failure on the part of the hospital/nursing home to remind us in a legally correct manner not to carry inside does not relieve us of complying with the law that prevents us from carrying there.
That's not true anymore. PC46.035(i) was changed by the last legislature and now states: "Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06." Hospitals and nursing homes are covered by (b)(4). Without a compliant PC30.06 effective notice, you can carry in hospitals and nursing homes. With non-compliant notice, like others have said, you should win in court but at a great cost.
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:39 pm
by kauboy
30Carb wrote:S&W6946 wrote:
(b) A hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code,
or a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety
Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the hospital or
nursing home, as appropriate, a sign that complies with the requirements
of Subsection (c) other than the requirement that the sign
include on its face the number "51".
I believe you are missing the point.
The hospital and nursing home are already off limits to licensed and unlicensed carry by law, with or without the legally correct signs. It is our responsibility to know this. A hospital/nursing does not have the option to prohibit.
It is the hospital's/nursing home's responsibility to remind us by posting the correct legal signs.
Failure on the part of the hospital/nursing home to remind us in a legally correct manner not to carry inside does not relieve us of complying with the law that prevents us from carrying there.
Where did you pull this out of?
I believe a reminder is in order:
§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
...
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under
Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing
home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the
license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing
home administration, as appropriate;
...
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
Your welcome. 
BTW, to the OP, an 8 1/2x11 piece of paper would be sufficient if it were handed to you and everyone else as they entered the building, but not anywhere else.
Carry proud and carry often. (where legal 
)
Thank you gentlemen...
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:06 pm
by 30Carb
...casselthief, barres, and kauboy, for correcting my error and bringing me up to date.
Re: Thank you gentlemen...
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:55 pm
by kauboy
30Carb wrote:...casselthief, barres, and kauboy, for correcting my error and bringing me up to date.
No problem. We are all here to help each other.
