TexasCHLforum.com

The citizens of Texas have worked hard to secure CCL rights. History has shown us that individual cities are working to take them away.

This fall, the City of Grapevine posted 30.06 signs at Grapefest (a popular community event held on six blocks of Main Street). In doing so they prevent CCL holders from exercising their right to carry.

I am a Texas Attorney and experienced trial lawyer. I have carefully researched this matter and I believe that the City's decision is outside of the law. I have exchanged letters with the City Attorney and while he has been professional in his communications, he continues to assert that the City has the right to exclude CCL holders. I disagree.

A small group has asked me to bring suit against the City. I am willing to take on this case pro-bono (without charge), but I need the assistance of someone who has experience in this area of law (I have none).

If you are a Texas attorney willing to assist me with this matter, please contact me. If you know a Texas attorney who may be interested in this matter, please forward this post to them

Thank you.

Ponderosa

Welcome to the forum


I'm no lawyer, (retired Legal Asst - 25 years) but Preemption has been discussed previously here ... see form letter here for applicable State and Federal citations/statues etc
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49133&p=603067&hili ... er#p603067" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Additionally, Charles (Owner of this forum and a lawyer) requested any Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs be listed here viewtopic.php?f=7&t=188&hilit=form+letter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posts specifically on Grapefest search.php?keywords=grapefest" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You might call Charles, links to contact him here: memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am a Grapevine resident who specifically avoided Grapefest this year because of the incorrect signage. Previous years, they had posted non-51% TABC (blue) signs. I am not an attorney, but I have a vested interest in a positive (for CHL) outcome, so I would be interested to know what progress you make.

Thank you for what your doing. I don't want to speak for him but my guess is Charles can point you in the right direction for someone to help. He has contacts at the NRA that can give you what you need. In fact contacting the NRA might be a good idea even if Charles doesn't help you.

My question is WHO in the city is doing this? Someone has to be directing these signs. I've heard that the Grapevine PD is not necessarily CHL friendly but don't know that for a fact. I would love to see a suit be brought for this.

Please keep us updated on the progress.

If the same Chief as at the inception of the program in '95, there is an attitude there that definitely needs adjustment. Grapevine is the next "town" just south of me and I will certainly be willing to help as needed. If not seen, or known already, I believe it was the 2003 TX Legislature that amended 30.06 to clarify the issue for burrocat jerks such as in Grapevine.

" (e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035. "

Kind of off the topic but wouldn't arrests on city property illegally posted 30.06 set them up for lawsuits and civils rights violations? I ran into this at my city's civic center and the police officer was totally ignorant of the law besides being very rude and arrogant. We need someone to challenge all these idiocracies and end it once and for all. Here's hoping this case goes forward. I would be willing to contribute to the cause.

I saw the sign and carried right by it, after all it is a public/city street. On the way out I considered taking a picture of the sign to post on here but I didn't want to draw undue attention to myself. I do not recall if the sign met all the requirements of 30.06 (not sure if lettering was 1" tall) but I believe the verbiage was correct.

puma guy wrote:Kind of off the topic but wouldn't arrests on city property illegally posted 30.06 set them up for lawsuits and civils rights violations? I ran into this at my city's civic center and the police officer was totally ignorant of the law besides being very rude and arrogant. We need someone to challenge all these idiocracies and end it once and for all. Here's hoping this case goes forward. I would be willing to contribute to the cause.

Considering this and the Grapevine PD chief's apparent willingness to allow his officers to arrest CHLs for the invalid 30.06 sign on Grapevine Mills Mall, I think that the attitude within the City's management needs "re-shaping.". Grapevine isn't alone, however. The Irving convention center is also 30.06 posted.

30.06 signs posted on government property that isn't already off-limits are unenforceable. Unfortunately, there's nothing currently in the Penal or Local Gov't Code that makes posting such signs unlawful. Therefore, there's nothing that can be done legally to force them to remove the sign(s).

I'll send an open records request; that often gets the desired response.

Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:30.06 signs posted on government property that isn't already off-limits are unenforceable. Unfortunately, there's nothing currently in the Penal or Local Gov't Code that makes posting such signs unlawful. Therefore, there's nothing that can be done legally to force them to remove the sign(s).

I'll send an open records request; that often gets the desired response.

Chas.

Charles,

This is the same city I made an open records request to on the Grapevine Mills Mall and their invalidly worded 30.06 sign. Even had a chat with one of the Lieutenants and Chief about informant the sign. Their response was they have no standing policy on enforcement of the sign, but would leave it up to individual officers discretion to enforce. However, it was told to me that if an officer did arrest someone they would turn it to the City Prosecutor to follow through.

Will be interesting to see what their response to your request is.

Non-lawyer asking a question: would someone actually have to be arrested to have "standing" for a lawsuit?

Keith B wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:30.06 signs posted on government property that isn't already off-limits are unenforceable. Unfortunately, there's nothing currently in the Penal or Local Gov't Code that makes posting such signs unlawful. Therefore, there's nothing that can be done legally to force them to remove the sign(s).

I'll send an open records request; that often gets the desired response.

Chas.

Charles,

This is the same city I made an open records request to on the Grapevine Mills Mall and their invalidly worded 30.06 sign. Even had a chat with one of the Lieutenants and Chief about informant the sign. Their response was they have no standing policy on enforcement of the sign, but would leave it up to individual officers discretion to enforce. However, it was told to me that if an officer did arrest someone they would turn it to the City Prosecutor to follow through.

Will be interesting to see what their response to your request is.

I forgot about that, but I'm going to send the ORR to the city. My guess is the city manager had public works post the signs, but the ORR will reveal this information.

Chas.

Jumping Frog wrote:Non-lawyer asking a question: would someone actually have to be arrested to have "standing" for a lawsuit?

Some suits can be filed without an arrest, but since 30.06 signs on government property cannot be enforced (with limited exceptions), a pre-arrest suit is highly problematic. Even with an arrest, it's going to be hard to state a §1983 action, but not impossible.

This and numerous other examples show why we need a legislative fix in 2013. Something like Marian Hammer did in Florida would be fitting.

Chas.

The aspect of this that I have real trouble with is that a governmental entity is telling you that you cannot do something. How is this any different than a cop telling someone that he cannot enter (but not arresting you for disobeying)?
I wonder if there is any precedent regarding the posting of a sign being equivalent to enacting an ordinance.

FYI, Grapefest is again posted this year (yay I'm home on vacation!). I left my LCP in the van so I wouldn't take a chance on getting hassled... I didn't have a choice on going because it was a family thing.