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Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:58 am
by Seabear
Well, let me start with saying I had a really great time a week ago meeting up with a couple of old HS buddies to do a little bird hunting. One of them is very knowledgeable about firearms and even does some gunsmithing/building. We used to shoot together all the time when we were in HS and he was always a great shot and still is. Now to present day 30 someodd years later....
He has convinced himself and our other less experienced friend that the only weapon worth carrying is a Glock. I carry various weapons, however I prefer a thumb safety or a DAO pistol. His rationale against having a thumb safety is "they can break, then what?" His other comment was that "if I was to beat a fence post with my 1911 it would cease to function whereas the Glock will continue firing." And last but not least he said "Everytime I drop my Glock it lands on the back end of the slide" ????!!!!????!????!???!??!?!
I said "What are you doing dropping it?"
He said he was just trying to do too much at one time, however if I was to do that with my 1911 it would cease to function. First off, I don't recall EVER dropping my 1911
I know you Glock guys are proud of the reliability of them, I have owned a couple and decided they weren't for me, to each their own. What I would like to know is if any other peolple are of this opinion. Do you really feel thumb safeties are unreliable? Do you really think the 1911 design is so delicate?
Needless to say I was shocked about the "Dropping the Glock all the time" Statement and it concerns me for my friend's safety and those around him. Hope he doesn't pull a Plaxico.
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:05 am
by The Annoyed Man
Your friend is just being dumb.
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:09 am
by Seabear
The Annoyed Man wrote:Your friend is just being dumb.
You won't get any argument from me on that one.
It is disturbing though, I thought he was smarter than that.
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:45 am
by A-R
He's dumb about dropping any gun and reacting to it as if "no big deal". But on a fundamental level, I don't disagree with his theory. The KISS principle alone - applied to its extreme - would lend itself to an argument that the fewer moving parts a machine has the more reliable it will likely be. I'm no engineer, and I'm sure an engineer could poke all kinds of holes in that argument. But it's a valid argument, nonetheless.
Not saying the 1911 is junk (which apparently your friend was). Just saying I've always believed there's some fundamental truth in the KISS principle.
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:48 am
by The Annoyed Man
Let me start by saying, I have nothing seriously against Glocks other than A) they tend not to fit my hand very well, and B) dey ooglay. That said, they are well made pistols and work very well. My wife owns a G19. So, this is not to bash Glocks.
For one thing, a typical 1911 has at least three safety mechanisms to the Glock's one: grip safety, thumb safety, and (often, but not always) some sort of trigger/firing pin safety. It is true that all of these safeties have to function properly for the pistol to be brought into play, and it is also true that this requires more practice on the part of the 1911 owner to acquire the skills of a pistolero with that platform.
It is equally true that the sheer number of "Glock Leg" incidents simply dwarfs the number of "1911 leg" incidents, in large part due to the fact that drawing and using a 1911 requires the user to also use the fourth safety.....his brain. A Glock user on the other hand may get his booger hook into the trigger guard at any stage of the process, including the initial draw stroke, without ever engaging the fourth safety, and very easily shoot himself in the leg. Hence the statistics.
Now, I am not calling Glock users stupid. What I am saying is that they have to pay much closer attention to what they are doing in order to safely handle their pistols, than does the 1911 user with a cocked and locked pistol. And I am not saying Glock users pay less attention either. I'm just saying that if their attention wanders, the likelihood of an ND is quite a bit higher, which explains the statistics.
All of that said, repeatedly dropping your pistol, regardless of what it is, is just dumber than a bag of hammers. If your friend is doing that, he should not handle any firearms whatsoever because he has proven that he is not up to the responsibility..........that, or he drinks far too much "likker." If that is the case, and if he cannot be dissuaded from carrying a gun, then the rest of the world is much safer if he carries a 1911 than a Glock. That way, if he still wants to shoot himself in the leg, he is free to do so; but those redundant safeties on the 1911 will protect the rest of us despite his refusal to engage the fourth safety.
Dumb, dumb, dumb. Dumber than a mud fence.
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:05 am
by Seabear
A-R wrote:He's dumb about dropping any gun and reacting to it as if "no big deal". But on a fundamental level, I don't disagree with his theory. The KISS principle alone - applied to its extreme - would lend itself to an argument that the fewer moving parts a machine has the more reliable it will likely be. I'm no engineer, and I'm sure an engineer could poke all kinds of holes in that argument. But it's a valid argument, nonetheless.
Not saying the 1911 is junk (which apparently your friend was). Just saying I've always believed there's some fundamental truth in the KISS principle.
I am a proponent of your KISS method. That is why I either carry DAO or something with a thumb safety. To me always doing the same thing...ie."muscle memroy" keeps things simple for me. I was in no way putting down the simplicity and reliability of the Glock, I was mostly expressing my shock and disapointment in my old friend.
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:11 am
by Seabear
The Annoyed Man wrote:that, or he drinks far too much "likker." If that is the case, and if he cannot be dissuaded from carrying a gun, then the rest of the world is much safer if he carries a 1911 than a Glock. That way, if he still wants to shoot himself in the leg, he is free to do so; but those redundant safeties on the 1911 will protect the rest of us despite his refusal to engage the fourth safety.
Dumb, dumb, dumb. Dumber than a mud fence.
Unfortunately it's not caused by the "likker". I have been thinking about it and I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that it is because he is a very avid AR fan and builder. He is extremely safe with firearms especially long guns. That's why I was so shocked about by his "dropping" comment. You would think since he uses the safety on an AR he would miss having something for his thumb to do with the Glock. It also just dawned on me that maybe he is dropping the Glock because he thinks it has a One Point Sling.
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:11 am
by A-R
The Annoyed Man wrote:For one thing, a typical 1911 has at least three safety mechanisms to the Glock's one
Sorry good buddy, but this is inaccurate. Glocks have three safeties - one active (trigger safety) and two passive/automatic (firing pin safety and drop safety).
Original 1911s only had two active (grip safety and thumb safety) and zero passive/automatic (though later models have integrated various drop safeties and firing pin safeties).
In a nutshell, the 1911 safeties would "allow" someone to press the trigger of a loaded 1911 without it going BANG. Depending on your point of view, this good (extra level of safety) or bad (false sense of safety, as in "look I can press the trigger and nothing will happen" ... until you fail to realize your muscle memory already subconsciously deactivated the thumb safety and ... BANG).
Both are great handgun systems, likely the best two ever developed. And each user should choose the system that fits them best.
As for NDs, it's a stretch to compare 1911s to Glocks in this regard because of sheer numbers (how many more police officers etc. use Glocks daily than 1911s?) and because of the change over that was made in law enforcement from revolvers with relatively heavy triggers (8-15 pounds vs. about 5-6 for a stock Glock) but still no external active safeties of any kind. And yes, I realize the US military used 1911s for 75 years, but it was not the primary weapon of many (most?) who carried it and and likely not subject to number of unholster/reholster repetitions as a LEO-used handgun.
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:26 am
by MasterOfNone
A-R wrote:As for NDs, it's a stretch to compare 1911s to Glocks in this regard because of sheer numbers (how many more police officers etc. use Glocks daily than 1911s?) and because of the change over that was made in law enforcement from revolvers with relatively heavy triggers (8-15 pounds vs. about 5-6 for a stock Glock) but still no external active safeties of any kind. And yes, I realize the US military used 1911s for 75 years, but it was not the primary weapon of many (most?) who carried it and and likely not subject to number of unholster/reholster repetitions as a LEO-used handgun.
Also, I see at the shop all the time a cultural factor that surely contributes to a greater likelihood of Glock owner-caused incident. The average thug who doesn't know a thing about guns generally has no clue what a 1911 is (probably thinks its the long-distance emergency number). But he sure knows what a Glock is, if only by name. So the population of 1911 owners is likely to include a smaller percentage of ignorant people.
Both guns are great tools in the hands of a skilled operator. It's just that Glock's name draws more of the unskilled.
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:28 am
by A-R
MasterOfNone wrote:A-R wrote:As for NDs, it's a stretch to compare 1911s to Glocks in this regard because of sheer numbers (how many more police officers etc. use Glocks daily than 1911s?) and because of the change over that was made in law enforcement from revolvers with relatively heavy triggers (8-15 pounds vs. about 5-6 for a stock Glock) but still no external active safeties of any kind. And yes, I realize the US military used 1911s for 75 years, but it was not the primary weapon of many (most?) who carried it and and likely not subject to number of unholster/reholster repetitions as a LEO-used handgun.
Also, I see at the shop all the time a cultural factor that surely contributes to a greater likelihood of Glock owner-caused incident. The average thug who doesn't know a thing about guns generally has no clue what a 1911 is (probably thinks its the long-distance emergency number). But he sure knows what a Glock is, if only by name. So the population of 1911 owners is likely to include a smaller percentage of ignorant people.
Both guns are great tools in the hands of a skilled operator. It's just that Glock's name draws more of the unskilled.
Great point.
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:09 pm
by esxmarkc
As I try to do with any thread, please allow me to interject true engineering and scientific principle to achieve a solution.
"Everytime I drop my Glock it lands on the back end of the slide" ????!!!!????!????!???!??!?! I said "What are you doing dropping it?" He said he was just trying to do too much at one time, however if I was to do that with my 1911 it would cease to function.
If one was concerned that he/she would drop their precious 1911 and have it damaged by landing on the back of the slide (cocked hammer on a 1911) I would suggest strapping a large healthy cat to the side of the 1911. If attached properly, the cat would always land feet down thus putting the 1911 into the pavement magazine first thus only bending/damaging the end of the easily replaceable magazine.
Similar results can be achieved by keeping a generous coat of peanut butter on the butt of the magazine however I find this solution far too messy.
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:40 pm
by mamabearCali
I like both 1911's and glocks. For finance reasons we only have a glock 36 right now (only single stacks of anything fit my hand). That said WHY ARE YOU DROPPING A GLOCK OR A 1911!!! Look I know guns have to be rugged, and some field testing is fine, but I would not do it on my gun. Hello! I paid a pretty penny for it and don't want to have to afford repairing it. I would much rather save up my pennies for a new gun than a repair bill on my old because I was a dum dum and dropped it. Look accidents are accidents and I have dropped my glock a few times, but don't do it on purpose!
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:42 pm
by Pawpaw
esxmarkc wrote:As I try to do with any thread, please allow me to interject true engineering and scientific principle to achieve a solution.
"Everytime I drop my Glock it lands on the back end of the slide" ????!!!!????!????!???!??!?! I said "What are you doing dropping it?" He said he was just trying to do too much at one time, however if I was to do that with my 1911 it would cease to function.
If one was concerned that he/she would drop their precious 1911 and have it damaged by landing on the back of the slide (cocked hammer on a 1911) I would suggest strapping a large healthy cat to the side of the 1911. If attached properly, the cat would always land feet down thus putting the 1911 into the pavement magazine first thus only bending/damaging the end of the easily replaceable magazine.
Similar results can be achieved by keeping a generous coat of peanut butter on the butt of the magazine however I find this solution far too messy.
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:45 pm
by JJVP
if I was to beat a fence post with my 1911 it would cease to function whereas the Glock will continue firing.
And he would beat a fence post with a firearm, why?
Re: Dropping Glock versus 1911
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:48 pm
by JJVP
esxmarkc wrote:As I try to do with any thread, please allow me to interject true engineering and scientific principle to achieve a solution.
"Everytime I drop my Glock it lands on the back end of the slide" ????!!!!????!????!???!??!?! I said "What are you doing dropping it?" He said he was just trying to do too much at one time, however if I was to do that with my 1911 it would cease to function.
If one was concerned that he/she would drop their precious 1911 and have it damaged by landing on the back of the slide (cocked hammer on a 1911) I would suggest strapping a large healthy cat to the side of the 1911. If attached properly, the cat would always land feet down thus putting the 1911 into the pavement magazine first thus only bending/damaging the end of the easily replaceable magazine.
Similar results can be achieved by keeping a generous coat of peanut butter on the butt of the magazine however I find this solution far too messy.