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Situation:

Place: Hair Salon

there are a small number of adults (most women), at least one toddler and two very young elem.

2 men come in look around, pull out guns, demand money from everyone. They wave guns at everyone! Beat up a guy because he tries to tell the babies everything will be ok. They leave.

An acquaintance of mine was in the shop, she is the mom of the baby and one of the others. I've been working with her, trying to help her get past this...it's going to be a very long process.

I was talking with my sister about it, (she's a counselor) she asked me what I would have done...after thinking a bit, I decided that taking into account that there were 2 angry gang banger bg's, 3 small children, lots of sharp stuff and chemicals....but mostly the 2 to 1 thing...I would have given them my purse, my gun in my waistband, and prayed like mad that they left! When I talked with my husband about it, he said the same thing.

What would you do?

I don't really like dealing with this incident as a "what if", I hate that it happened to someone I know, but I think working through these scenarios is good for us.

A similar incident suggests one possible solution. viewtopic.php?f=108&t=46693" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sounds like a bad situation to start any fight. would give up wallet but keep gun concealed. You can never know their full intentions.
If you are keeping gun in purse suggest investigating on body carry. Quicker access and you don't have to give them your money and gun at the same time.

...good answer, that...

Fighting like your life was on the line might be a good idea. I dunno.

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viewtopic.php?f=23&t=22441&p=254919" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Barber shops and hairdressers are prime robbery targets because they take in a lot of cash. I'm surprised they are not robbed more often than they are. Women are more vulnerable to kidnapping and rape. Some criminals seem to want to kill just for the sake of doing evil.

- Jim

I'm not sure why they think beauty shops 'take in cash' everyone pays with a CC these days...and this one was hit 2 hours after opening...they were specifically after purses.

It turns out that one of the two of these BG's was on his 3rd armed robbery of the week...he never shot the gun, but liked to put it to peoples heads.

This is why I tell my CHL students over and over that they needto go through multiple scenarios in their heads LONG before they start carrying. When the time comes, it's too late to decide how you would react. So I am gladyou are thinking about it now.

In this situation, with 2 against 1 and so many innocents nearby I would have to let the robbery unfold . If they take the money and run, nobody gets hurt. If I draw my weapon someone if not everyone could get hurt or killed. Now, if the robbers escalate things by showing signs of preparing to execute people before leaving or commit sexual assaults etc. I would have to look for my opportunity to STOP them. All the more reason to be proficient with your weapon.

Sounds like a bad situation to start shooting unless you really have to. Having a gun doesn't mean it should always be used in these situations. I'd probably give over my wallet but would not give up my gun because they shouldn't even know that I have it. Now if I'm pocket carrying and they tell me to empty my pockets....well I guess I can't say right now.

Oh Tracy, that is horrible. I will pray for your friend. There are no magic words to help heal that hurt quickly.

I have to agree with what you said. I don't carry a purse, but I would probably give the creeps my money and remain concealed unless the situation escalated and I had to draw to save my life or the life of another. Babies around add terrible possibilities for an even uglier situation if you draw unnecessarily. Money can be replaced, our children can't.

SewTexas wrote:Situation:

Place: Hair Salon

there are a small number of adults (most women), at least one toddler and two very young elem.

2 men come in look around, pull out guns, demand money from everyone. They wave guns at everyone! Beat up a guy because he tries to tell the babies everything will be ok. They leave.

An acquaintance of mine was in the shop, she is the mom of the baby and one of the others. I've been working with her, trying to help her get past this...it's going to be a very long process.

I was talking with my sister about it, (she's a counselor) she asked me what I would have done...after thinking a bit, I decided that taking into account that there were 2 angry gang banger bg's, 3 small children, lots of sharp stuff and chemicals....but mostly the 2 to 1 thing...I would have given them my purse, my gun in my waistband, and prayed like mad that they left! When I talked with my husband about it, he said the same thing.

What would you do?

I don't really like dealing with this incident as a "what if", I hate that it happened to someone I know, but I think working through these scenarios is good for us.

You deserve credit for thinking about possible situations and there possible outcomes. Unfortunatley there are to many variables.

Can't say what I would do in any situation but I can say that I train a certain way, meaning I train for a "threat". If someone pulls a weapon they are a threat but that does not mean I have to pull my gun.

Some random thoughts IMHO,

1. If they are after money they should be in a hurry to get in and get out, if I sense that this is the case I would try to keep my gun holstered.

2. If they are trying to take control of the customers, like tying people up, pistol whipping, shooting the floor, then I figure it is game on. I pray my 50 percent is good enough that day.

3. I have vowed never to give up my gun. I feel a sacred duty to keep my gun from the bad guys as best I can.

4. Training and practice is vital, in fact it is one of the few things we have some control over.

SewTexas wrote:I'm not sure why they think beauty shops 'take in cash' everyone pays with a CC these days...and this one was hit 2 hours after opening...they were specifically after purses.

Being male I go to a barber shop. They don't even accept plastic. With multiple barbers, they might take in $100 per hour in cash.

I can't speak for the thinking process of robbers.

I've said many times that robbery is a loser's game. The average career of a robber is about a year before they are arrested or killed.

I think there is an aspect of power-tripping to robbery, which makes it a close sibling of rape and kidnapping. I won't tell anyone else what to think or do, but I am not certain that "just give them what they want" works with robbers. There are too many examples of compliant robbery victims being humiliated, raped, or killed.

I also have never heard of a crime victim saying, "I wish I had just gone along instead of fighting back."

- Jim

I like seeing everyone's opinion. this is a good discussion.

I have to say as long as they were only robbing they can have my purse (never never never my gun). The moment they start doing other things like the beating up of the man I have to start considering my options and how far you let them go. If it looks like they are going to beat him to death (not just punch him once and move back to the robbery and they are distracted by their beating up of the man and are not looking at you) then you look for an opportunity to end it and pray like mad. If they start taking children or sexually assaulting people the situation completely changes and me I fight and throw lead.

I have a few things that I will fight to the death over #1 I will not be sexually assaulted and just stand there and take it #2 I will never ever let a criminal get my gun #3 I will never ever let my children be kidnapped while I have breath in my body. The thought of my child dying in front of me makes my blood run cold, but the thought of them being kidnapped assaulted and then killed while I stood there and did nothing is even worse.

seamusTX wrote:

SewTexas wrote:I'm not sure why they think beauty shops 'take in cash' everyone pays with a CC these days...and this one was hit 2 hours after opening...they were specifically after purses.

Being male I go to a barber shop. They don't even accept plastic. With multiple barbers, they might take in $100 per hour in cash.

I can't speak for the thinking process of robbers.

I've said many times that robbery is a loser's game. The average career of a robber is about a year before they are arrested or killed.

I think there is an aspect of power-tripping to robbery, which makes it a close sibling of rape and kidnapping. I won't tell anyone else what to think or do, but I am not certain that "just give them what they want" works with robbers. There are too many examples of compliant robbery victims being humiliated, raped, or killed.

I also have never heard of a crime victim saying, "I wish I had just gone along instead of fighting back."

- Jim

One of the books recommended to me was "Strong on Defense" by Sanford Strong. It essentially says the same thing as Jim. In fact, the book goes one step further saying that you should be prepared for hurt and pain in order to survive. Examples are given of unarmed victims physically attacking knife wielding assailants.

On balance, I've read the story about the unidentified LEO who sent his family out of a fast food store while he attempted to confront a robber with a gun. The LEO shot and killed the robber but not before the robber's shots had killed a 9 year old girl. It turned out afterward that the LEO's family had not made it out of the store before the violence began. It is tough to try to predict what might have happened if the LEO had not been in the store that day. The is the problem with armed robbery, the outcomes are unpredictable.

I agree that the desire for control of the situation by the BG might be a key for me to act. In a smash and grab situation where the BGs are in a hurry, I might be less inclined respond. There are, however, enough documented cases where after getting what they wanted, the BGs shot back into the building as they retreated. If that happens, the window of opportunity to respond has passed.

All of these "what if" scenarios keep popping up on the forum, but they all have one thing in common. They all assume that you were caught unprepared by surprise. Here's my favorite perennial "what if": "what if the bg has a gun to your head?"

My response: "Well you don't let him get his gun pointed to your head, !"

Always sit near the exit. That way, you could leave and if the bg were to follow (unlikely), then the bg would be silhouetted in the doorway for easy pickings. If an exit seat were unavailable, then a seat with cover and an escape route would be preferable. As a last resort, a seat with a clear line of fire to the cash register and close to the entrance would be least preferred.

Body language, speed, and clothing would be indicators of possible intent. Always be aware of your surroundings with your peripheral vision. Even if you are looking at an exotic dancer at your center of vision, your peripheral vision should still sense something is possibly wrong if someone RUNS into the hair salon. There's no reason to RUN into a hair salon. Frowning and reaching for something underneath a cover garment would be corroborating body language. Clothing might be a giveaway, but many bg put on their Sunday best to lessen suspicion of a robbery and make a clean getaway, so that's not always reliable. Given the perp's speed and body language, you should already be reaching for your weapon and pedaling out the door. By the time the perp draws and yells, "It's a stickup!" You should already be halfway out the door with your gun drawn.

If you do have to shoot in a crowded room where there's no clear shot without danger of penetrating the bg and hitting someone else behind the bg, then practice shooting for a perp's foot. A perp who loses his balance due to a missing foot has a natural fall instinct response; the hand releases the gun and extends for balance and to break the fall. This means the perp will lose control of his weapon if you shoot him in the foot. The downward trajectory of a foot shot ensures that the shot will not over-penetrate the bg and hit someone behind him.

In summary, anywhere you go, be sure to look for the required by law red "EXIT" sign. This may save your life someday.

P.S. IMHO, I think that all these crazy "what if" situations where it's impossible to come out a "winner" are started by anti 2nd A posters. Don't play their game. Instead of saying what you'd do if you were in such and such a situation, let them know that you're able to AVOID the situation because you know where the exits are.

P.P.S. Please note that I said "as a last resort" get a seat with a "clear line of fire" and only shoot the bg in a crowded room "if you have to". 74novaman, as you can see, I agree with you. It's a terrible idea so shooting the bg in the foot/pelvis should only be your "last resort" thing to do "if you have to."

mamabear, yeah, pelvis shots are a good downward trajectory shot if you're tall and there are major arteries in the pelvis area. Great idea! If you're tall and/or close, pelvis shot and foot shot if you're far and/or short in stature. Thanks! (that's what this forum is for, an exchange of ideas).

SewTexas wrote:Situation:

Place: Hair Salon

there are a small number of adults (most women), at least one toddler and two very young elem.

2 men come in look around, pull out guns, demand money from everyone. They wave guns at everyone! Beat up a guy because he tries to tell the babies everything will be ok. They leave.

An acquaintance of mine was in the shop, she is the mom of the baby and one of the others. I've been working with her, trying to help her get past this...it's going to be a very long process.

I was talking with my sister about it, (she's a counselor) she asked me what I would have done...after thinking a bit, I decided that taking into account that there were 2 angry gang banger bg's, 3 small children, lots of sharp stuff and chemicals....but mostly the 2 to 1 thing...I would have given them my purse, my gun in my waistband, and prayed like mad that they left! When I talked with my husband about it, he said the same thing.

What would you do?

I don't really like dealing with this incident as a "what if", I hate that it happened to someone I know, but I think working through these scenarios is good for us.