verbal 30.06 notice in Church each time ?

[bat1]

Humm, I've been reading the thread "Looking for a New Church" viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46406 and did not want to hijack the thread, so I stated a new one..

I have similar problem, at least one LEO, if not more, is always at the Church, and is known to be the security, Now the question is, IF a CHL is told with a verbal 30.06 notice (none posted), of course they would leave and dis-arm, BUT would you consider this a "one-time" verbal notice, and could you show up at the next meeting armed again.. ?

Or is a one time verbal notice a ok, you can never carry there again?

Also, can a off duty LEO give you a verbal 30.06 notice, if he is NOT on the staff ?

Also, would this be a your word against my word? BAT

[G.A. Heath]

Humm, I've been reading the thread "Looking for a New Church" viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46406 and did not want to hijack the thread, so I stated a new one..

I have similar problem, at least one LEO, if not more, is always at the Church, and is known to be the security, Now the question is, IF a CHL is told with a verbal 30.06 notice (none posted), of course they would leave and dis-arm, BUT would you consider this a "one-time" verbal notice, and could you show up at the next meeting armed again.. ?

Or is a one time verbal notice a ok, you can never carry there again?

Also, can a off duty LEO give you a verbal 30.06 notice, if he is NOT on the staff ?

Also, would this be a your word against my word? BAT

The notice would stand until rescinded by someone with the authority to do so. On/Off duty doesn't matter if they have the authority to give you the notice, a discussion with the staff of the church would be required to determine if this is the case. As for a "your word against my word" situation it is one, however when dealing with police, and courts, the word of a LEO tends to have more weight than most other people.

[Skiprr]

Humm, I've been reading the thread "Looking for a New Church" viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46406 and did not want to hijack the thread, so I stated a new one..

I have similar problem, at least one LEO, if not more, is always at the Church, and is known to be the security, Now the question is, IF a CHL is told with a verbal 30.06 notice (none posted), of course they would leave and dis-arm, BUT would you consider this a "one-time" verbal notice, and could you show up at the next meeting armed again.. ?

No.

If you are given oral notice by someone whom you believe to be representing the authority of the property owner, it’s valid notification that the premises is off-limits under PC §30.06.

Period. No discussion. You risk a Class A Misdemeanor and loss of your CHL should you decide to carry at the next meeting.

[C-dub]

This is true if the officer actually has the authority to give you notice. I question whether or not an officer has the authority to speak for a business or in this case a church in this capacity. I don't necessarily believe that an officer, hired for security, has any real control over a place and therefore the authority to give someone notice. They are not the owner and don't really have any actual authority with regards to that place. They, obviously, have authority, but can they really speak for a business?

I remember a few people saying that an officer at the Texas State Fair told them that they could not carry into some restaurant inside the fair, but of course the restaurant was not posted and is on property owned by the city. I will concede that if an officer tells me I cannot carry somewhere, whether or not he actually can, that if I did I would probably be taking a ride if caught by him. However, if it were a place I could not actually be prohibited from carrying then the charges would also probably be dismissed. Remember, many officers are not the best or even second best person to ask about the law and where a person can and cannot carry. I would contend that most of them do not know that churches are not automatically off limits and must post a 30.06 sign.

[kjolly]

If given verbal notice it is the same as seeing a 30.06 sign. You can never carry in there again.
I might request a hearing before the church board and point out as example the other church shootings,or more likely find another place to worship that respects your 2A rights.

[Oldgringo]

I would consider verbal 30.06 notice in Church as notice that I'm not welcome and to please hit the road.

Now comes the question of whether the notice comes from someone in authority or from some jerk who thinks "my church" really is his/her church. Your call.

[jmra]

Humm, I've been reading the thread "Looking for a New Church" viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46406 and did not want to hijack the thread, so I stated a new one..

I have similar problem, at least one LEO, if not more, is always at the Church, and is known to be the security, Now the question is, IF a CHL is told with a verbal 30.06 notice (none posted), of course they would leave and dis-arm, BUT would you consider this a "one-time" verbal notice, and could you show up at the next meeting armed again.. ?

Or is a one time verbal notice a ok, you can never carry there again?

Also, can a off duty LEO give you a verbal 30.06 notice, if he is NOT on the staff ?

Also, would this be a your word against my word? BAT

Above you say "if" you are given verbal notice. Questions:
1. Have you been given verbal notice?
2. If you have been given verbal notice:
A. Have you verified with staff that this individual has the authority to speak for the church?
B. What prompted the notice?
C. How did he know you had a CHL?
D. Are you the only person who has been given notice?
3. How many people normally attend a meeting?
4. How attached are you to this church? How deep are your roots?

I think the answers to these questions will better help others understand the situation and influence any advice they may offer.

[jmra]

If given verbal notice it is the same as seeing a 30.06 sign. You can never carry in there again.
I might request a hearing before the church board and point out as example the other church shootings,or more likely find another place to worship that respects your 2A rights.

I don't know that I agree with your statement. I would agree that if you have been given verbal notice that you cannot carry there again as long as the person who gave the verbal notice remains there in a position of authority.
Example: restaurant manager some how knows you carry and gives you verbal notice. The next month head office completely replaces management team and the person who gave you notice is no longer in a position of management. I believe that since there is no posting and the authority that issued the notice has been removed the notice would no longer be valid.
I would say the same thing with a church. If a pastor came up to you privately and said I want you to leave your gun in the car and the next week he leaves to pastor another church the notice is no longer valid.

[retrieverman]

In your case like mine, it sounds like your have a few power hungry folks who want to control your church but yet probably mean well. My intention is to talk directly to my pastor about the subject, and I would suggest you do the same. Since you have been given verbal notice by "security", I would suggest not carrying until you can meet with the pastor, and depending on what kind of "ruling body" your church operates under, you may need to push to have the subject brought before the church for a public vote.

[fickman]

For written notice (30.06 signs) at places where I do not have a relationship with the management or owners, I consider the notice I receive as effective for that trip only (although if I went back in the same day, I'd assume it hadn't changed yet).

Who knows how often company policies are changed, management positions turn over, or ownership transfers in privately owned businesses? If I come back next week, I need to be given notice again. If not, I'll assume that their policies or leadership have changed. I do not feel compelled to circumnavigate every building I enter on a scavenger hunt for 30.06 signs, so if I come back on a subsequent day and do not see a sign, I'll presume they came to their senses and now welcome CHLers.

Without a clear timeline given in the law, and not knowing any relevant cases, I'd presume that a jury would be forced to use the "reasonable person" standard.

At a major mall, verbal notice would seem to be something of immediacy to communicate. It seems reasonable that they would need to tell you on every visit, as they're unlikely to be able to track who has and who has not been notified yet, and they're likely to have a large number of first-time or infrequent visitors.

For a place like a church where you might be more intimately involved with leadership, you might be more reasonable expected to know that nothing has changed from one visit to the next. If you moved away for a year and came back, it might be reasonable that they need to give you notice on your next visit.

If it was your sister's house where you received verbal notice, it'd be reasonable to assume that notice is effective until she actively communicates something different to you.

. . . this is all based on my own personal surmising. I, of course, am not a lawyer.

[fickman]

To add to that, if you every sign something confirming you received notice, I'd assume that's effective as long as the entities are unchanged. In that case, I'd want it to have an expiration date or clear renewal period. I'd probably only sign something stating I received confirmation for employment purposes, in which case I'd assume it was effective as long as my employment lasts.

[SewTexas]

Bat, it's kinda hard to tell from your post how much of it is hypothetical and how much of it has happened to this point. If the od leo is the only security on, I hope it's a smallish church! But more to the point, at most churches a security leo is hired by the church, he has no authority to say what someone can or can't do other than that they can't break into cars or shoot up the parking lot! (That's why I've always liked having church members patrolling, we can keep the teens where they belong, too ) Personally, I would say speak to the pastor, just like we told retrieverman, use the scriptures we've spoken of in other threads, if he says "no carry" then leave.

[wgoforth]

Church minister here....yes, to be told verbally is permenent until told otherwise. BUT, I have never considered security anywhere to be anyone of official staff to be authorized to give such notice. For ME, I would play shut mouth, check my concealment, and carry until such time as board member, minister, etc tells you not to. IF you feel you could talk to them about it, well and good. Downside is you risk being given verbal notice.

[fickman]

IF you feel you could talk to them about it, well and good. Downside is you risk being given verbal notice.

I might be treading a little off topic. . . but I wouldn't be a member anywhere I I couldn't have access to the pastor to have a personal chat. Apologies to those at the mega-churches, that's just my feeling.

[The Annoyed Man]

Church minister here....yes, to be told verbally is permenent until told otherwise. BUT, I have never considered security anywhere to be anyone of official staff to be authorized to give such notice. For ME, I would play shut mouth, check my concealment, and carry until such time as board member, minister, etc tells you not to. IF you feel you could talk to them about it, well and good. Downside is you risk being given verbal notice.

That is the key.... Whether it is a church or a business, the question is, "Does the person who gave the notice have the authority to give such notice?" Let's take a shoe store as an example.... You sit down and bend over to try on a pair of shoes, and the sales clerk sees your gun printing and informs you that your concealed carry weapon is not permitted in that store. Is he/she giving you their personal opinion and preference; or is he/she informing you of a written store policy? The former means you can ignore him/her. The latter means you have to leave.

Churches are no different. So if the security officer in question (doesn't matter if they are off-duty LEO or not) informs you that you cannot carry your gun in church, are they informing you of their own opinion, or are they informing you of an established church policy of which the church leadership are aware? If the former, you can ignore that person. If the latter, then you have to leave. Church security people don't write the policy. Church leaders do. Security makes their recommendations, and then the leadership chooses to follow or ignore those recommendations based on their spiritual principles. So, you have to find out in advance of any such confrontation whether or not your church actually has such a rule. If they don't, you can tell the officer to place his concerns where the sun don't shine—diplomatically, of course, and feel free to "church it up" all you need to in order to not deliberately offend. If the church does have such a rule, then you have a decision of conscience to make as to whether or not you can continue to belong to a church that does not value your life enough to permit you the means of defending it. To each his/her own, and I wouldn't criticize you for choosing to stay; but I would personally start looking elsewhere unless the senior pastor could articulate an insurmountable spiritual reason in support of their policy.

Fortunately for me at my church, that is not likely to be a decision I'll ever have to face. I genuinely feel bad for people who do because, as any solid believer knows, the words "church home" carry a depth of meaning that may not be entirely understandable to non-believers.