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One of the things that seems to be missing from CHL training is practice in different scenarios. I was thinking it would be cool if there was some kind of scenario training where you were presented with "real life" type role-play scenarios, some of which require deadly force and some which don't. You would use your own gun with snap-caps, and see how you handled the situation. An instructor would critique your actions in a debriefing.

It seems like something like this would really help with training situational awareness as well as making people more confident that they can handle a crisis situation. However, I have not seen anyone implementing these kinds of scenarios targeted at CHL holders. I know there are some "tactical" handgun classes, but those seem to be more targeted at personal security guys.

Has anyone seen anything like this? If it was available, would you sign up for it?

AlexKilpatrick wrote: I know there are some "tactical" handgun classes, but those seem to be more targeted at personal security guys.

Those classes may be targeted for security training and/or improving handgun/tactical skills, but don't denigrate the potential value to yourself as a CHL. The more training you have, the better your overall skills and judgment will be. Security-directed training may not be specifically CHL-oriented, but I have to believe it would definitely give you some good decision making training.

I would have to think that CHL-oriented scenario training would be a bit more difficult to design. Because no matter how many scenarios they would try to come up with, even if you spent a month in training, any real-life situation you are likely to encounter would probably have a better than average chance of not having been covered in the training. There are going to be almost as many potential self defense scenarios as there are Bad Guys. It can develop gradually, or it can happen suddenly with little to no warning. It could be one guy or a dozen. It could be.... you get the idea.

I'm not trying to poo-poo your idea for CHL-oriented training. And there may well be some form of classes out there. But until you find them, I would encourage researching, reading, educating yourself, and generally trying to visualize various possible scenarios. I know I've found some eye-openers on this forum recently that have really expanded my thinking and mental preparations. No, I don't remember what subforum they were in (probably the Never Again one, but I really couldn't say), or even what the initial topic was that peaked my interest. But I have given up most of my other (non-gun related) internet browsing in lieu of digging thru this forum's many posts and great information. There's a lot of good ideas and thought-provocation here.

I agree you certainly couldn't cover all the possible bad guy scenarios. However, you could cover a lot of different kinds of scenarios, and I think it would be valuable training just to get you thinking in the right mindset. My CHL class *talked* about a few scenarios, but talk is just talk. It would be interesting to do role-play with situations that are representative of things you would encounter. Just thinking of a few off the top of my head: home invasion, carjacking, mugging, mall shooting, parking garage, etc. It would be interesting to have scenarios where the best action is to shoot, and scenarios where the best action is to run away, or scenarios where the words escalate/de-escalate the situation. It has been clearly established that people learn better when doing compared to just hearing about something. *Some* CHL role-playing would have to be better than nothing.

A tactical class would probably have some benefit, but it seems like it would cover different material, and would have different attitudes - bodyguard duty, clearing a room, tactical reloading, concealment, etc.

Food for thought:
1) Threatened with deadly means (weapon), your deployment of deadly force is justified.
2) Disparity of force, may be a justification for use of deadly force as a response.
3) You are not justify to use deadly force for simple provocation or simple assault.
4) You are expected to deescalate any confrontation and NOT provoke a confrontation.

I hope when you can use deadly force and or the threat of deadly force is 100% fully covered in your CHL course.
Specific scenarios may vary but principle of use of deadly force do not.

Note: If I mis-stated the facts above, someone correct me.

My course certainly covered the ins and outs of when you can use deadly force, but it was just words. It leaves me wondering whether I really have all that internalized such that I will do the right thing when it counts.

I used to teach skydiving, and we had a similar situation where there were a variety of different problems you would encounter, and you had to react quickly with the right action. We came up with a series of drills that we made the students practice, covering the majority of possible scenarios. The whole idea was to get that stuff into muscle memory, so that when the situation happened, you reacted the way you were trained. You didn't spent a lot of time thinking about it, because in a stressful situation you IQ drops dramatically. I had a total malfunction on jump 15, and I believe all the drills really helped me. I think a similar thing could be done for CHL situations.

Several police departments use FATS (Firearms Training System). FATS is a state of the art training system which stimulates real life situations in a controlled atmosphere. This tool was designed to aid in decision-making skills, judgmental use of force and marksmanship training.

Some individual gun training schools also have the FATS system.

http://www.ontargetfirearmstraining.com/simulator.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AlexKilpatrick wrote:I agree you certainly couldn't cover all the possible bad guy scenarios. However, you could cover a lot of different kinds of scenarios, and I think it would be valuable training just to get you thinking in the right mindset. My CHL class *talked* about a few scenarios, but talk is just talk. It would be interesting to do role-play with situations that are representative of things you would encounter. Just thinking of a few off the top of my head: home invasion, carjacking, mugging, mall shooting, parking garage, etc. It would be interesting to have scenarios where the best action is to shoot, and scenarios where the best action is to run away, or scenarios where the words escalate/de-escalate the situation. It has been clearly established that people learn better when doing compared to just hearing about something. *Some* CHL role-playing would have to be better than nothing.

A tactical class would probably have some benefit, but it seems like it would cover different material, and would have different attitudes - bodyguard duty, clearing a room, tactical reloading, concealment, etc.

Most likely you are seeking specialized force-on-force training with air soft. There are self-defense firearms schools that just teach that kind stuff. It is expensive and you need to seek it somewhere not in your town.

"Back in the day", in addition to continual (quarterly) range qualification, we (all boarding team members) had to go through a "shoot / don't shoot" program when I served in the USCG.

There were several different videos, each with multiple scenarios. You stood facing the screen, wearing all your tactical gear, and as previously stated we used snap caps. With each scenario, you had to make the decision of the appropriate course of action (shoot - don't shoot) based on the unfolding action of the scenario.

Although it is impossible to emulate EVERY situation you may encounter, I found it a useful tool to help demonstrate the intent of our ROE (rules of engagement). If you didn't pass, you were no longer on a boarding team until you could pass. You never saw the same video twice.

The program was never intended to cover all aspects or scenarios, but to help demonstrate the practical application of what can sometimes be a dry and abstract policy. It made you think on the fly, and I thought it was WAY FUN TOO

This was all law enforcement based, and I'm not sure what a civilian based program would look like (scenario wise), or how effective it would be, but it was one of the best "video games" that I ever played.

FATS, airsoft, simunitions are all great tools to learn about force on force. You only get out of them what you put into them approach it like a game you get game results. Approach it like training and you get training results. The only way to get real life results is in real life, we are smart enough to know that's a tough school.

Beiruty wrote:
Most likely you are seeking specialized force-on-force training with air soft. There are self-defense firearms schools that just teach that kind stuff. It is expensive and you need to seek it somewhere not in your town.

Just out of curiosity, why would you need to "seek it somewhere not in your town?"

AlexKilpatrick wrote:One of the things that seems to be missing from CHL training is practice in different scenarios. I was thinking it would be cool if there was some kind of scenario training where you were presented with "real life" type role-play scenarios, some of which require deadly force and some which don't. You would use your own gun with snap-caps, and see how you handled the situation. An instructor would critique your actions in a debriefing.

It seems like something like this would really help with training situational awareness as well as making people more confident that they can handle a crisis situation. However, I have not seen anyone implementing these kinds of scenarios targeted at CHL holders. I know there are some "tactical" handgun classes, but those seem to be more targeted at personal security guys.

Has anyone seen anything like this? If it was available, would you sign up for it?

There are many instructors around offering advanced courses for the CHL holder and self defense.
One of the first places to check is with the NRA and find a personal protection inside the home and a personal protection outside the home course. Then find some more advanced courses
http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com/classes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bigred90gt wrote:

Beiruty wrote:
Most likely you are seeking specialized force-on-force training with air soft. There are self-defense firearms schools that just teach that kind stuff. It is expensive and you need to seek it somewhere not in your town.

Just out of curiosity, why would you need to "seek it somewhere not in your town?"

unless you are lucky, such training is not easily find everywhere. I also suggest if you have access to range with tactical bays to practice with friends using airsoft.

Beiruty wrote:

bigred90gt wrote:

Beiruty wrote:
Most likely you are seeking specialized force-on-force training with air soft. There are self-defense firearms schools that just teach that kind stuff. It is expensive and you need to seek it somewhere not in your town.

Just out of curiosity, why would you need to "seek it somewhere not in your town?"

unless you are lucky, such training is not easily find everywhere. I also suggest if you have access to range with tactical bays to practice with friends using airsoft.

That makes more sense. I read it as you were suggesting that even if it was offered in your area, that you should seek it elsewhere for some reason.

Just a note that I, personally, wouldn’t make a huge distinction between what’s been referred to as “tactical” courses and training that’s meant specifically for CHLs.

In truth, many—if not most—schools and trainers offer more courses and content for civilians (using the term not literally correctly, as in exclusion of LEOs) than for professionals. These courses, from basic to advanced, are geared for the civilian who carries a firearm. Many include situational awareness, prevention and de-escalation techniques, as well as other necessities like movement and use of cover. As mentioned, some syllabi are force-on-force, but those classes generally have prerequisites and require completion of more basic courses first.

Like jamisjockey said, an excellent, and cost-effective, place to start is with the NRA Personal Protection Inside and Outside the Home courses. Although not force-on-force, both do cover actual scenarios with recommendations. The NRA range work for these courses is doable by any shooter who has established reasonable competency with a handgun, but they aren’t for complete beginners.

For more dynamic range work, you can travel to well-known schools like Gunsite or Thunder Ranch. Large schools like these offer a wide variety of options, including shoot houses for work defending or clearing a structure.

Many well-known trainers travel to various cities and hold some of their courses at partner ranges where they can be more accessible and therefore less expensive. Gabe Suarez, John Farnam, Rob Pincus, and Craig Douglas are just a few that come to mind.

While these courses are aimed at the civilian carrying a firearm, I recognize they don’t address the OP’s original post regarding shoot, don’t shoot scenarios from the perspective of Texas law. However, IMHO, the law is relatively simple and straightforward. If you understand the law, and you understand the conflict dynamics of Opportunity, Ability, Jeopardy, and Preclusion, what becomes more important is knowing how to take action, and knowing what your limitations are in the options presented you.

I don’t want to imply that shoot, don’t shoot scenarios are unimportant, but I think they have most value for LEOs. As CHLs, we are presented with far fewer situations where deadly force might be an option. We can’t be preemptive as can a LEO; we can’t draw our guns in advance of a threat that's only yet a possibility, nor are we charged with preventing crime or arresting or apprehending the bad guys.

Statistics tell us that, over 81% of the time, if we’re involved in a violent encounter outside the home, it will be at a distance from direct contact to six feet. You get inside that territory and something goes down, things are going to be fast, messy, and completely chaotic.

Know the law thoroughly, in advance, and have a plan for what to do afterward, should you ever have to pull your gun. I highly recommend Charles Cotton’s free seminars through the Texas Firearms Coalition, and think everyone should attend at least once. They provide the practical, informed discussion of the law that I believe every CHLer needs to hear.

But if something happens that truly requires the use of deadly force to defend yourself or your loved ones, remembering the text of PC Chapter 9 is going to be the very last thing on your mind.

There is a reason that you find few of the most experienced members of this Forum chiming in on threads that contain, “What would you do?” with regards to shoot, don’t shoot. The scenarios never (at least, in my five years here I’ve never seen one) contain all the information—situational, geographical, tactical, temporal, and otherwise—necessary to make an informed decision. If all the information were present, making a decision isn’t all that difficult: Never shoot if there is a way you can reasonably avoid doing so; but if you can’t avoid it, shoot effectively and efficiently.

That last part is harder to get right than knowing when to do it.

The FATS system is a great training tool, I can't wait until I get to do it again. The best thing is to practice drawing and hitting a 2ft by 3 ft target 7yds or closer and be able to put the first shot on the target until it is a reflex. Also do the same drill shooting from the hip at 2 yds.

You need to be able to draw and fire2 shots in 2 seconds or less.
IDPA matches are good practice also.